Long Range Non Penetrator (lrnp)
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Long Range Non Penetrator (lrnp)
Interesting bit in one of today's Sunday chip wrappers. It seems that a feasibility study is being carried out on a 'bomb truck' - a long range aeroplane which will launch Storm Shadow etc from extended range. In other words, it wouldn't need to penetrate enemy defences in order to launch stand-off weapons. Hence the acronym LRNP.
Types being considered are, apparently, A400M, C17, A330 and....C130. This seems like the old 'Dumb aircraft, clever weapon' idea - but it would obviously be much cheaper to modify a big aircraft to carry long-range stand-off weapons than to buy a fleet of B2s.
Of course you couldn't then do clever things like the rapid repsonse and re-targetting so publicly revealed when a B1B took out Saddam (perhaps) half-way through the fish course in a Baghdad nosh house - unless, that is, having launched your stand-off weapons you could employ over-the air re-targetting?
The other advantage is that such an aeroplane needn't be single-role. Your A400M could fly as a trash-hauler one day, move grunts around on another - and then launch stand-off weapons on yet another. No need for targetting radar, self-defense suites, etc - just a 'smart' remote targetting team and, of course, a weapon launching system. Not quite sure how that would be achieved - para-extracted or pylon mounted, perhaps? Presumably when A400M was being considered as a MPA replacement in its earlier FLA days, some study work was carried out regarding the carriage and launch of weapons?
Types being considered are, apparently, A400M, C17, A330 and....C130. This seems like the old 'Dumb aircraft, clever weapon' idea - but it would obviously be much cheaper to modify a big aircraft to carry long-range stand-off weapons than to buy a fleet of B2s.
Of course you couldn't then do clever things like the rapid repsonse and re-targetting so publicly revealed when a B1B took out Saddam (perhaps) half-way through the fish course in a Baghdad nosh house - unless, that is, having launched your stand-off weapons you could employ over-the air re-targetting?
The other advantage is that such an aeroplane needn't be single-role. Your A400M could fly as a trash-hauler one day, move grunts around on another - and then launch stand-off weapons on yet another. No need for targetting radar, self-defense suites, etc - just a 'smart' remote targetting team and, of course, a weapon launching system. Not quite sure how that would be achieved - para-extracted or pylon mounted, perhaps? Presumably when A400M was being considered as a MPA replacement in its earlier FLA days, some study work was carried out regarding the carriage and launch of weapons?
Long Range Non-Penetrator
Sorry to sully the topic with an irrelevant post, Beags - I just wanted to observe that its title is a pretty accurate description of my love-life while I followed the flag all those years (sigh...)
Thread Starter
Ah - but as an old Chipmunk QFI once said to me "You might build up an appetite when you're out - but you can always eat at home!"
Or perhaps he was just another DNCOer!
LRNP is a pretty silly acronym in any case. I prefer 'PMB' - or Poor Man's Bomber!
It does sound a bit as though someone's trying to re-invent the Skybolt!
Or perhaps he was just another DNCOer!
LRNP is a pretty silly acronym in any case. I prefer 'PMB' - or Poor Man's Bomber!
It does sound a bit as though someone's trying to re-invent the Skybolt!
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Nevertheless, lacking an upgraded Vulcan, BEagle, it sounds quite sensible. Presumably the "non-penetrating" bit means that the Concept of Operations assumes that the EAD (if any) will have been neutralised by other assets. I always assumed that the B1 that spoilt Saddam's evening was loitering, ready for any such tasking, and did not have to fly far to release its weapons. Presumably LRNP could launch weapons of the JADMS type as well as Storm Shadow.
The USAF looked at this in the late 70's, the idea was that a Boeing 747 would be converted to carry 72 AGM86B internally - I am not sure how they were launched - the photo I saw did not show the launch method - although there appeared to be 2 doors in the lower rear fuselage.
The difficulty in spotting the launch aircraft located well over the radar horizon makes this potentially a very effective system. As the weapons would be launched from long range the risk of intercept should be quite low, the onboard avionics would not even have to be that sophisticated. Certainly no requirement for massive and powerful jammers or expensive stealth designs or materials. They may even be multirole by being easily converted to/from transport to tanker to stand-off missileer.
It certainly makes a lot of sense. The key question however should be the weapons carried; a subsonic weapon flying at 600 Mph launched from 600 miles would take 1 hour to reach the target, what is really wanted is a weapon that could do the journey at 6000 MPH and get there in 10 minutes, reaction times are becoming more and more critical - targets of opportunity pop up and disappear rapidly, they move, they drive into tunnels. Even with a man in the loop some targets are going to be lost in the time between launch and impact, the shorter that time is the better.
So yes a "missile caddy" is a good idea but a better one may well be to develop hypersonic weapons to go along with it.
The difficulty in spotting the launch aircraft located well over the radar horizon makes this potentially a very effective system. As the weapons would be launched from long range the risk of intercept should be quite low, the onboard avionics would not even have to be that sophisticated. Certainly no requirement for massive and powerful jammers or expensive stealth designs or materials. They may even be multirole by being easily converted to/from transport to tanker to stand-off missileer.
It certainly makes a lot of sense. The key question however should be the weapons carried; a subsonic weapon flying at 600 Mph launched from 600 miles would take 1 hour to reach the target, what is really wanted is a weapon that could do the journey at 6000 MPH and get there in 10 minutes, reaction times are becoming more and more critical - targets of opportunity pop up and disappear rapidly, they move, they drive into tunnels. Even with a man in the loop some targets are going to be lost in the time between launch and impact, the shorter that time is the better.
So yes a "missile caddy" is a good idea but a better one may well be to develop hypersonic weapons to go along with it.
Thread Starter
You're right. MJ. It was rather early when I read the e-paper, so your acronym is probably the correct one!
Still prefer 'Poor Man's Bomber' though.....
Still prefer 'Poor Man's Bomber' though.....
You've all forgotten one thing - the movers would get in on the act, declare it Dangerous Air Cargo and ensure that all explosives, fuel etc be removed and carried separately. Oh, and of course no launch crew could be carried with the weapons (just in case someone tried to use it). Leastways, thats what they seem to do with any other weapons etc to be carried on anything else in their empire! 
Pertama
Pertama
But surely the RAF is already in the process of buying an "LRNP" aircraft, or rather an aircraft that could do that as one of its many roles. With an extensive range, good loiter time, the planned ability to carry and deploy all airborne weapons in the NATO inventory, good comms fit for airborne re-targetting etc. Yes its "throw weight" is probably not as high as a dedicated LRNP might have, but what the hell!
What is it called? Why the Nimrod MRA4 (the A stands for attack). Before you all start falling off your seats laughing, read the aircraft specs and think about it. Provided the "Maritime boys" don't just treat it like the old Nimrod, and provided the "Tonka mates" don't fight turf wars to keep it out it offers interesting possibilities to anyone with any vision!
Just one drawback. You will have to wait 5/6/7/8/9/10/never* years for it to come into service.
* Delete as applicable.
What is it called? Why the Nimrod MRA4 (the A stands for attack). Before you all start falling off your seats laughing, read the aircraft specs and think about it. Provided the "Maritime boys" don't just treat it like the old Nimrod, and provided the "Tonka mates" don't fight turf wars to keep it out it offers interesting possibilities to anyone with any vision!
Just one drawback. You will have to wait 5/6/7/8/9/10/never* years for it to come into service.
* Delete as applicable.
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Biggus
Your are right on the money old fella, when you consider what the sensor package can do and with the capable weapons load what else do you need?
UK Maritime has already thought it through and has moved ahead as have the allies, the only things slowing maritime down is the in service date of XXXX, monkeys in charge at strike who don’t understand, the uncivil serpents advising them and no operators as those mentioned earlier have pissed them all off with their management strategies and plans not to mention retention measures or lack off
Rant over now where did I put that glass of Shiraz
Charlie sends
Your are right on the money old fella, when you consider what the sensor package can do and with the capable weapons load what else do you need?
UK Maritime has already thought it through and has moved ahead as have the allies, the only things slowing maritime down is the in service date of XXXX, monkeys in charge at strike who don’t understand, the uncivil serpents advising them and no operators as those mentioned earlier have pissed them all off with their management strategies and plans not to mention retention measures or lack off
Rant over now where did I put that glass of Shiraz
Charlie sends
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A certain weekly defence publication operating from a secret Surrey location actually wrote about this in great detail in late January - still, it's nice to see Fright International and the Sundays get the credit for reading the MoD Contracts Bulletin!
My understanding is that the study is going to concentrate initially on the C-130 - I know you're now it's biggest fan, BEagle, but the A400M won't be available in time!
My understanding is that the study is going to concentrate initially on the C-130 - I know you're now it's biggest fan, BEagle, but the A400M won't be available in time!
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A400M fan? Yes, I reckon that it'll be an excellent mutli-role ac. But it won't have anything like the capacity of the C-17. Whether the RAF will acquire more C-17s due to A400M delay, I don't know. Perhaps it could have a PMB role; since metal hasn't yet been cut, designing such a capability at this stage would be perfectly feasible.
It seems that the C130K and the VC10 will carry on for a good few years yet, thanks to the delays to FSTA ("This programme will NOT slip to the right, I can guarantee", said one civil serpent about 4 years ago....) and to FLA/A400M. So if/when someone finally orders it and it flies 4 1/2 years later, there's a better-than-even chance that the ancient aircraft it will replace will be long past their use-by dates!
The recent flight deck mock-up photos of the A380 show precisely how gucci the A400M flight deck will be. Not just a digitally re-mastered Herc like the C130J (which seems to have finally acquitted itself well - despite all the delays) - but a very 21st century design.
It could have alimited AAR role; however, to promote that capability might cause EADS difficulty in trying to push the A330 as a tanker/transport - so they're a bit stuffed there. Mind you, there is another tanker/transport made by Airbus which fits the bill for most countries which will fly later this year - the A310MRTT which is being built for the Luftwaffe and Canadian Forces by converting existing transport airframes. Much more capable as a tanker than the A400M, plenty of cargo space, fitted with an upper deck cargo door, 72 tonnes of fuel, 3 person operation (2 pilots and an Air Refuelling Operator) - but obviously without the A400M's short-field capabilities.
It seems that the C130K and the VC10 will carry on for a good few years yet, thanks to the delays to FSTA ("This programme will NOT slip to the right, I can guarantee", said one civil serpent about 4 years ago....) and to FLA/A400M. So if/when someone finally orders it and it flies 4 1/2 years later, there's a better-than-even chance that the ancient aircraft it will replace will be long past their use-by dates!
The recent flight deck mock-up photos of the A380 show precisely how gucci the A400M flight deck will be. Not just a digitally re-mastered Herc like the C130J (which seems to have finally acquitted itself well - despite all the delays) - but a very 21st century design.
It could have alimited AAR role; however, to promote that capability might cause EADS difficulty in trying to push the A330 as a tanker/transport - so they're a bit stuffed there. Mind you, there is another tanker/transport made by Airbus which fits the bill for most countries which will fly later this year - the A310MRTT which is being built for the Luftwaffe and Canadian Forces by converting existing transport airframes. Much more capable as a tanker than the A400M, plenty of cargo space, fitted with an upper deck cargo door, 72 tonnes of fuel, 3 person operation (2 pilots and an Air Refuelling Operator) - but obviously without the A400M's short-field capabilities.
Thread Starter
At last!
"A400 finally gets German approval" reported in Defence Systems Daily headlines. I don't have any further details - I'm sure that ORAC will oblige?
"A400 finally gets German approval" reported in Defence Systems Daily headlines. I don't have any further details - I'm sure that ORAC will oblige?
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BEags:
Yep, the seemingly impossible has happened - Germany has approved funding for its 60 ac, and the 180-aircraft contract will be signed with OCCAR in Bonn on 27 May.
Coming soon(ish) to a secret Wiltshire airbase near you?
What do the truckies think about this contract finally getting through - good thing?
Yep, the seemingly impossible has happened - Germany has approved funding for its 60 ac, and the 180-aircraft contract will be signed with OCCAR in Bonn on 27 May.
Coming soon(ish) to a secret Wiltshire airbase near you?
What do the truckies think about this contract finally getting through - good thing?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Steamchicken,
FAZ May 23rd - "A big step in transforming the military to a more mobile force took place this week when the budget committee approved the EUR8.3 billion for the cooperative European Airbus project that guarantees the German military 60 new A400 military transport aircraft by 2012, down from the 73 originally planned."
FAZ May 23rd - "A big step in transforming the military to a more mobile force took place this week when the budget committee approved the EUR8.3 billion for the cooperative European Airbus project that guarantees the German military 60 new A400 military transport aircraft by 2012, down from the 73 originally planned."
Thread Starter
Thanks ORAC- knew we could rely upon you!
If the contract is signed on 27 May 2003, then that means the first A400M should fly before the end of January 2008....??
If the contract is signed on 27 May 2003, then that means the first A400M should fly before the end of January 2008....??
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Blimp - the ultimate stand-off weapon
BLIMP, or Balloon Launched Interdiction Missile Platform, promises to become the definitive offensive weapons delivery system of the early 21st century.
At the heart of the system, helium-filled airships carrying a variety of air-launched stand-off missiles will be stationed just beyond the radar horizons of potentially hostile nations.
Drawing power from thousands of reflective, radar-confusing solar cells attached to their outer envelopes, these dirigibles will be capable of loitering on station for several weeks at a time, or while food supplies last (Pilot Inflight Eating System, or PIES).
When not in use as a weapons platform, BLIMP can exercise its Variable Aeronautical Geographical Intelligent Navigational Abilities (V.A.G.I.N.A., or short field take-off and landing ability) as a swing-role transport and medevac aircraft. Use of this system in hostile theatres will gain approval once technical difficulties surrounding the fitting of DU armour plates to the helium envelope have been overcome.
I can't wait to see it in action....or the A400M....
At the heart of the system, helium-filled airships carrying a variety of air-launched stand-off missiles will be stationed just beyond the radar horizons of potentially hostile nations.
Drawing power from thousands of reflective, radar-confusing solar cells attached to their outer envelopes, these dirigibles will be capable of loitering on station for several weeks at a time, or while food supplies last (Pilot Inflight Eating System, or PIES).
When not in use as a weapons platform, BLIMP can exercise its Variable Aeronautical Geographical Intelligent Navigational Abilities (V.A.G.I.N.A., or short field take-off and landing ability) as a swing-role transport and medevac aircraft. Use of this system in hostile theatres will gain approval once technical difficulties surrounding the fitting of DU armour plates to the helium envelope have been overcome.
I can't wait to see it in action....or the A400M....
Last edited by BlueWolf; 23rd May 2003 at 19:55.