V- Bombers.

[Noah Zark.]

Years ago, when Vulcans were still in front line service, in the high altitude nuclear strike role, finished in anti-flash white, I recall seeing them flying overhead at what seamt to be a great altitude. The wonderful sight of the white triangle, contrailing all over the place.
All that was ever released about their service ceiling was "50,000+ft."
Can any ex-Vulcan crews tell us what height they really flew at?
And the same of Victors?

[BEagle]

The highest I ever saw in a Vulcan was 52000 ft during fighter affiliation with a pair of F4s (who lost!). But you had to be fairly light to get that high; with a 'bucket of sun' and 98%+16K fuel you'd probably expect 43000-45000 to start with.

The altitude was limited by crew oxygen regulators; the Mk 17 wuouldn't provide sufficient overpressure in the event of explosive decompression above 45000 ft whereas the Mk 21 would. However, to take advantage of the 50mm Hg overpressure available from the Mk 21, you needed to wear both a pressure jerkin and g suit - not much fun for everyday training but used occasionally in the Vulcan SR2 (later termed the B2(MRR)) for certain mission requirements. Without the PJ, you would go pop at 50mm Hg, so the maximum level wasn't as high with the Mk 21 sans PJ than it was with the Mk 17 regulator.

So really the captian shouldn't have taken us up to 52000 - we'd have probably gone hypoxic if the Vulcan had decompressed. But they never did - and besides, we beat the F4s quite comfortably. They couldn't get a decent snap up Sparrow shot due to our manoeuvrability and with only the AIM 9 G hadn't a hope of getting a 'winder shot off either; if they had, then the IRDs would probably have seduced it in any case!

[Dan Winterland]

The Victor in tanker service was limited to 49,000' due to the oxygen regulators fitted. I flew it up to that alt several times without a problem. Also the tanker had underwing stores, a slightly shorter wingpsan (117') and the ailerons were uprigged a few degrees which reduced lift.

The bomber had no oxy restrictions as it was fitted with a pressure breathing system which enabled the use of 'pressure jerkins' - a cut off pressure suit which then allowed the aircraft above 50,000' according to the RAF regulations. It also had a 120' wingspan, no refuelling pods and on a strike mission profile, the underwing tanks would have been jettisoned when empty. I gather it could reach 63,000' during the strike profile.

There was also a lighter strategic reconnaissance version which was lighter and had a 123' wingspan which could allegedly reach 67,000'.

[moggie]

BEagle - I see that Airbus/UK MoD are supposed to be looking at producing a bomber version of one of their products.

Any thoughts that dusting off the Vulcan jigs (I know - they were probably destroyed), bunging in new engines, new avionics and fitting bang seats for the rear crew might be more effective?

Imagine what that piece of kit could do!!

[oxford blue]

I've been up to FL560 in a Vulcan about 3 hours into the trip (We did have pressure jerkins and G-pants on). There was still a positive rate of climb but it was slow. However, I had no doubt that the aircraft would have gone higher if we'd been prepared just to sit there and wait for it to happen.

The Mk2s with 300 engines were supposed to go up to 60,000 feet. I never knew anyone who took one that high, but I'm sure that, with sufficient patience, it would have got there.

BEagle is right. Fighters had no chance in high level fighter affiliation. He's talking F4s. Imagine what is was like seeing off F104s with their little wings. Once, we had 4 F104s against us simultaneously for half an hour, ie, 4 v 1. At the end of it, for once, they were honest enough to send us a combat report in which they admitted that not one of them had been able to get a single firing solution in 30 minutes of continuous effort.

[tony draper]

Ah! but things would have been different if yer had Mr Wholigan on your tail.

[FEBA]

For all you vulcanologists out there. I took the boys to Newark air museum last bank holiday. In pride of place at the front of the musem is Vulcan XM594. You can have a shufty inside for 50p, why did they make the flight deck smaller than a mini?? Anyway if you want to check your logs books and have flown this beast, get in touch with the museum. It's XM594 40th birthday this summer and they're having a bit of a do. Cheers
Feba

[Biggles Flies Undone]

I used to do a lot of motor race marshalling and we had our fire training days at RAe Farnborough. The training took place on the far side of the runway in the ‘fire ground’. They set cars up for us to practice on, but there were always aircraft waiting to be burnt for the benefit of the airport fire services. One year there was a Vulcan in the queue and, during the lunch break, I managed to sneak aboard for a peek and was amazed how small and cramped the crew accommodation was. There were also loads of shreds of 8mm film on the bonfire which seemed to show the early trials of the Vulcan. All long gone now – some people have no souls

My son has got a bang seat from a Victor in his militaria collection and (when he’s not looking!) I sometimes sit in it and wonder what it was like to fly these great aircraft. Those of you who have been there and done it are very lucky people.

[BOAC]

At the end of it, for once, they were honest enough to send us a combat report in which they admitted that not one of them had been able to get a single firing solution in 30 minutes of continuous effort.

Seconded - the Lightning faired as badly. One blink and the damn thing was head on to you again! - mind you

30 minutes of continuous effort

Dream on!

[newswatcher]

What a pity they didn't proceed with the addition of a rocket motor for additional altitude, as discussed during the 50s.

A similar exercise resulted in the Canberra (WK163), built by A.V. Roe at Woodford in 1954 as a 'B2' variant, being fitted with two Napier Double Scorpion Rocket Motors. On 28 August 1957, the aircraft broke the world altitude record by flying to 70,310 feet (Mike Randrup and Walter Shirley (don't call me Shirley!)).

[soddim]

I can confirm how difficult it was to take on the Vulcan - even in the Lightning. I once scissored with a Vulcan at 45000ft-ish and had to take advantage of his lack of vision to get a shot and that was against an opening target. Two well-flown Vulcans at night using ECM were nigh-on impossible.

However, before we get too carried away with how wonderful the Vulcan was, there would be few who would voluntarily act as target for a live firing F4!

[Noah Zark.]

Thanks for the replies, fellas. I thoroughly agree with the last line of Biggles' post. Lucky guys.
I too was priveliged ( as a civvie) to get a look round the inside of a Vulcan cockpit, it was so small you had to go outside to change your mind!
As a yoof, I occasionally used to get to lean on the fence at R.A.F. Finningley, about 25 miles from my domiciliary edifice, and watch the Vulcans and Valiants stationed there perform.
I don't know what squadrons they were part of, but I think I am right in saying that they were O.C.U.'s.
Ah, the good old days!

[Dr Jekyll]

After the Vulcan was retired was any consideration given to converting a few Victors back to bomber configuration for use in the event of a Falklands type campaign?

It always seemed a bit of a waste during the first gulf war to see 3 Tornados on a high altitude bombing mission, accompanied by a Victor to refuel them, 3 Buccaneers to carry the laser equipment, plus another Victor to refuel the Buccs.

Couldn't the 2 Victors (or even 1 Victor) do the same job on their own?

[Noah Zark.]

Interesting thought, Dr. Jek. Especially when you remember the Victor's lifting capability of 35 one-thousand pounders, even if they were the new smart concrete bombs.

[FEBA]

Payload

15.9 tonnes is that all. Blimey a Lanc could nearly match that (not quite as fast though)!!!

[Dan Winterland]

Er, don't think so. (Don spotters hat) Usual load for a Lanc was 12,000lbs, max about 16000lbs. Modified Lancs carried the 22,000lb Grand Slams.

[MadsDad]

Opposite type of thing to the 'how high will they go' and I'm not sure if this should be on the 'low flying' thread but since it was a Vulcan involved I'll put it here.

Lot of years ago, about 25 (so it must have been at the end of the Vulcans flying career), I was up on the North Yorks moors with a friend, recceing for a rally we were going to compete in. We were on a moorland road near a village called Cockayne (honest), which is about 10 miles west of Fylingdales. We had parked up for a leg stretch on one of the moorland roads, with the road being on the west side of a valley, about 50 feet below the crest of the hill.

I was leaning on the car having a cigarette when the entire hillside suddenly appeared to 'rear up' above me and move towards me. A couple of seconds later we had a Vulcan about 100 feet above us, heading east - the movement had been this thing suddenly appearing above the hill. He can't have been more than 50 feet above the top of the hill. I always assumed he must have been doing a practice run on Fylingdales (certainly heading that way) but it was a superb sight.

[FEBA]

Dan, I was thinking of the 22000 lbs payload capability of the Lancaster. So the Vulcan doesn't look quite so impressive when compared especially when you consider that the Vulcan was subsonic (I think the Lanc was too).
The real question here is based on an observation in another thread regarding the number of aircraft required to support a GR4 bombing mission - inflight re fuellers target markers etc etc- surely a few dedicated bombers could do the job far more cost effectively?? Discuss....

[Art Field]

I think there is a slight difference between Lancaster sub sonic and Vulcan sub sonic having watched the Lanc go by recently, a superb but lingering sight. I do not think the Lanc would have made the round trip Ascension/Mount Pleasant (all of 3000 each way) although we did put up a fair number of tankers (around 14 I seem to remember) to get the Vulcans there and back.

[Noah Zark.]

As I recall, the Victor was the only one of the V-Bombers to actually go supersonic, although I cannot recall the circumstances.