A10 strikes again
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A10 strikes again
Just heard on BBC news that an A10 has fired on a British column and killed a british serviceman. have found a link to sky news...
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...085537,00.html
This really will open up a can of worms for the A10 units....
My thoughts are with the serviceman's family...God Bless.
I would also like to add that I am not inferring any sort of animocity to the US, just merely posting an event that seems to have had little news coverage...One would presume because its becoming such a common event at the moment for these types of accident/incident to occur.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...085537,00.html
This really will open up a can of worms for the A10 units....
My thoughts are with the serviceman's family...God Bless.
I would also like to add that I am not inferring any sort of animocity to the US, just merely posting an event that seems to have had little news coverage...One would presume because its becoming such a common event at the moment for these types of accident/incident to occur.
Last edited by mutleyfour; 29th Mar 2003 at 17:24.
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It goes without saying that warfare is a tense and dangerous situation in which we try to kill the enemy without getting shot. As a result we try to use our weapons first, and therefore at close to maximum ranges. Whilst British (and all coalition) forces have markings that are designed to identify them as friendly, they only work if the aggressor a) looks for them and b) sees them. There are many reasons either of the 2 criteria are not met, and this is an inevitable consequence of all warfare throughout the years.
As for the Americans getting a bad reputation for their recent blue-on-blues, we need to make sure we don't immediately blame them for being gung-ho without any firm evidence. Flying over enemy territory with a significant surface-to-air and AAA threat would make anybody a little twitchy. Frat has always happened and will continue to happen, and in the dynamic and dangerous environment of warfare we should not be in the least bit surprised.
As for the Americans getting a bad reputation for their recent blue-on-blues, we need to make sure we don't immediately blame them for being gung-ho without any firm evidence. Flying over enemy territory with a significant surface-to-air and AAA threat would make anybody a little twitchy. Frat has always happened and will continue to happen, and in the dynamic and dangerous environment of warfare we should not be in the least bit surprised.
Those Warthogs
I'm normally a Warthog fan - and I agree that
"we need to make sure we don't immediately blame them for being gung-ho without any firm evidence."
Well, here's the evidence:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-629644,00.html
It's in The Times of 31 March, and I think the article says it all. Especially considering that the British Army doesn't normally speak like this in public, whatever they may say in private
"we need to make sure we don't immediately blame them for being gung-ho without any firm evidence."
Well, here's the evidence:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-629644,00.html
It's in The Times of 31 March, and I think the article says it all. Especially considering that the British Army doesn't normally speak like this in public, whatever they may say in private
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One of the survivors of this incident, and friend of the British Cpl who was killed, has accused the A-10 pilot of having "no regard for human life" and accused him of being "a cowboy" who had "gone out on a jolly".
The pilot also killed two Iraqi civilians who were waving a large white flag.
The A-10 was well out of position. It was broad daylight. While 'Blue on blue' is inevitable in war, this was unforgivable. I have read all about it from several sources before making this judgement. This is just the kind of gung-ho behaviour that the US command can do without.
One unnamed source from D squadron said "As far as I am concerned, these two pilots should be done for manslaughter. There's no way on the planet that they couldn't see two vehicles, that they couldn't see the dayglo panel on the top."
Apparently, senior British officers are privately furious about this.
Read more here: Telegraph Times
The pilot also killed two Iraqi civilians who were waving a large white flag.
The A-10 was well out of position. It was broad daylight. While 'Blue on blue' is inevitable in war, this was unforgivable. I have read all about it from several sources before making this judgement. This is just the kind of gung-ho behaviour that the US command can do without.
One unnamed source from D squadron said "As far as I am concerned, these two pilots should be done for manslaughter. There's no way on the planet that they couldn't see two vehicles, that they couldn't see the dayglo panel on the top."
Apparently, senior British officers are privately furious about this.
Read more here: Telegraph Times
Grandpa Aerotart
I guess anyone can accept that accidents happen due 'The fog of War'...even the families of the lost....BUT day after day?
How many US troops have been killed accidently by RAF/RAAF aircraft so far?
I have not heard of any save accidents such as midairs/CFIT etc...none actually attacked that I'm aware of.
It was reported in the last few days in Australia that RAAF Hornet pilots refused to attack a target which, presumably, they were not convinced was legitimate.
While it would be grossly unfair to label all the US Forces as gungho one must wonder whether the point is being pushed hard enough by the commanding officers of various units!
"Guys we have killed xx of our own in the last week!!! This is not good enough....if you're not ABSOLUTELY certain don't shoot, if you get shot as a result of your own uncertainty TOUGH!!!"
Thoughts with the families always.
Chuck.
How many US troops have been killed accidently by RAF/RAAF aircraft so far?
I have not heard of any save accidents such as midairs/CFIT etc...none actually attacked that I'm aware of.
It was reported in the last few days in Australia that RAAF Hornet pilots refused to attack a target which, presumably, they were not convinced was legitimate.
While it would be grossly unfair to label all the US Forces as gungho one must wonder whether the point is being pushed hard enough by the commanding officers of various units!
"Guys we have killed xx of our own in the last week!!! This is not good enough....if you're not ABSOLUTELY certain don't shoot, if you get shot as a result of your own uncertainty TOUGH!!!"
Thoughts with the families always.
Chuck.
From the BBC web site today:
Three wounded UK soldiers have described how they survived an attack by a US A-10 Thunderbolt anti-tank aircraft that killed one of their troop and destroyed two armoured vehicles.
One of the survivors criticised the US pilot for showing "no regard for human life" and accused him of being "a cowboy" who had "gone out on a jolly".
Another survivor said he stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the American pilot to try to halt his second attack.
The so-called friendly fire incident, 40 kilometres (24.8 miles) north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on RFA Argus, the UK forces' hospital ship in the Gulf.
Nursing shrapnel wounds and burns, the three injured soldiers, Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, spoke of their bewilderment and anger.
They said the US pilot apparently failed to recognise that their tanks were a British make, with special coalition identification aids and even a large Union flag on another machine in the five-vehicle convoy.
Lance Corporal Gerrard said: "All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They've said if you put this kit on you won't get shot.
"We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres [4,921 ft].
"You've got an A-10 with advanced technology and he can't use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It's ridiculous.
"Combat is what I've been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked.
"What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me."
The two Scimitars, followed by two armoured engineers' vehicles and another Scimitar light tank, set out on a "recce" of a road north west of Ad Dayr, north of Basra in southern Iraq, on Friday.
After coming under fire from Iraqi artillery, they were instructed to investigate a shanty town.
Troop leader Lieutenant MacEwen, 25, with special plastic bags now tied around his hands to treat his burns, described how the convoy tensed as villagers waving white flags approached from behind a large bank on the marshland by the Shatt al-Arab river.
"You could see the white flags above the bank but you didn't know whether they had any intention of surrendering or ambushing us," he said.
Lance Corporal Gerrard said he suddenly heard the distinctive, relentless roar of an A-10's anti-tank gunfire.
"I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again," he said.
"There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke.
"I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted 'reverse, reverse, reverse'.
"My gunner was screaming 'get out, get out'. How I got out of that hole I don't know. Then I saw the A-10 coming again and I just ran."
Lying on his hospital bed, he said the A-10 circled and made a return attack run.
"On the back of one of the engineers' vehicles there was a Union Jack," he said.
"For him to fire his weapons I believe he had to look through his magnified optics. How he could not see that Union Jack I don't know."
The front two Scimitars, packed with hundreds of rounds of ammunition, grenades, rifle rounds and flammable diesel fuel tanks, exploded into flames.
One of the soldiers' colleagues, Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, did not escape the explosion.
Lance Corporal Gerrard also criticised the pilot for shooting when there were civilians so close to the tanks.
"There was a boy of about 12-years-old. He was no more than 20 metres [65.6 ft] away when the Yank opened up. There were all these civilians around.
"He [the pilot] had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy. He'd just gone out on a jolly."
He added: "I'm curious about what's going to happen to the pilot.
"He's killed one of my friends and he's killed him on the second run."
Trooper Finney, who was hit in the leg when the A-10 made its second attack, said all the British soldiers and their families joked about "friendly fire".
He said: "I got a letter off my dad the day before the attack and it said 'Be careful, come home soon and watch out for those damn Yanks'.
"Looks like he tempted fate a bit there."
Three wounded UK soldiers have described how they survived an attack by a US A-10 Thunderbolt anti-tank aircraft that killed one of their troop and destroyed two armoured vehicles.
One of the survivors criticised the US pilot for showing "no regard for human life" and accused him of being "a cowboy" who had "gone out on a jolly".
Another survivor said he stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the American pilot to try to halt his second attack.
The so-called friendly fire incident, 40 kilometres (24.8 miles) north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on RFA Argus, the UK forces' hospital ship in the Gulf.
Nursing shrapnel wounds and burns, the three injured soldiers, Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, spoke of their bewilderment and anger.
They said the US pilot apparently failed to recognise that their tanks were a British make, with special coalition identification aids and even a large Union flag on another machine in the five-vehicle convoy.
Lance Corporal Gerrard said: "All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They've said if you put this kit on you won't get shot.
"We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres [4,921 ft].
"You've got an A-10 with advanced technology and he can't use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It's ridiculous.
"Combat is what I've been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked.
"What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me."
The two Scimitars, followed by two armoured engineers' vehicles and another Scimitar light tank, set out on a "recce" of a road north west of Ad Dayr, north of Basra in southern Iraq, on Friday.
After coming under fire from Iraqi artillery, they were instructed to investigate a shanty town.
Troop leader Lieutenant MacEwen, 25, with special plastic bags now tied around his hands to treat his burns, described how the convoy tensed as villagers waving white flags approached from behind a large bank on the marshland by the Shatt al-Arab river.
"You could see the white flags above the bank but you didn't know whether they had any intention of surrendering or ambushing us," he said.
Lance Corporal Gerrard said he suddenly heard the distinctive, relentless roar of an A-10's anti-tank gunfire.
"I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again," he said.
"There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke.
"I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted 'reverse, reverse, reverse'.
"My gunner was screaming 'get out, get out'. How I got out of that hole I don't know. Then I saw the A-10 coming again and I just ran."
Lying on his hospital bed, he said the A-10 circled and made a return attack run.
"On the back of one of the engineers' vehicles there was a Union Jack," he said.
"For him to fire his weapons I believe he had to look through his magnified optics. How he could not see that Union Jack I don't know."
The front two Scimitars, packed with hundreds of rounds of ammunition, grenades, rifle rounds and flammable diesel fuel tanks, exploded into flames.
One of the soldiers' colleagues, Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, did not escape the explosion.
Lance Corporal Gerrard also criticised the pilot for shooting when there were civilians so close to the tanks.
"There was a boy of about 12-years-old. He was no more than 20 metres [65.6 ft] away when the Yank opened up. There were all these civilians around.
"He [the pilot] had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy. He'd just gone out on a jolly."
He added: "I'm curious about what's going to happen to the pilot.
"He's killed one of my friends and he's killed him on the second run."
Trooper Finney, who was hit in the leg when the A-10 made its second attack, said all the British soldiers and their families joked about "friendly fire".
He said: "I got a letter off my dad the day before the attack and it said 'Be careful, come home soon and watch out for those damn Yanks'.
"Looks like he tempted fate a bit there."
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The A10 jock is probably already back Stateside having therapy for the terrible shock to his system.....
I wonder if he was a full time USAF pilot, or another of the 'Sod patience, let's go and kick some @rse before we go back to selling real estate' brigade.
I wonder if he was a full time USAF pilot, or another of the 'Sod patience, let's go and kick some @rse before we go back to selling real estate' brigade.
Just a numbered other
I've tried to keep an open mind on the Blue-on-Blue situation so far.
After all, it does happen, and is sometimes understandable. But this one really does stink.
On BBC news 24 (not likely to be 100% accurate, then) it has been said that A10 crew do not study British AFVs in their recognition syllabus. WHAT!
One might have thought such lessons rather important when they belong to your allies in theatre.
In GW1 the only threat to my life came from the USN, and I wonder if having an aircraft called Thunderbolt has any bearing. In WW2 my father was attacked by P47s in Italy. Enormous white stars on their vehicles too.
I hope this is fully investigated; but more, that it doesn't happen again.
After all, it does happen, and is sometimes understandable. But this one really does stink.
On BBC news 24 (not likely to be 100% accurate, then) it has been said that A10 crew do not study British AFVs in their recognition syllabus. WHAT!
One might have thought such lessons rather important when they belong to your allies in theatre.
In GW1 the only threat to my life came from the USN, and I wonder if having an aircraft called Thunderbolt has any bearing. In WW2 my father was attacked by P47s in Italy. Enormous white stars on their vehicles too.
I hope this is fully investigated; but more, that it doesn't happen again.
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I was gonna say the same thing Saudi. I hope nobody actually believes that the yanks will do anything. No point in getting your hopes up like we did on this side of the pond, north of the 49th.
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No of course he won't be prosecuted. I heard the armed forces minister , the weasel Ingram say tonight, after being asked if we were making representation to the States over this incident
"Well, um ahhhhhh m, errrrr, well you see the thing is.... mmmmm"
However, this fine upright civil servant, did promise an urgent investigation into why the victims comments were allowed to be released to the media.
Well hooray.
"Well, um ahhhhhh m, errrrr, well you see the thing is.... mmmmm"
However, this fine upright civil servant, did promise an urgent investigation into why the victims comments were allowed to be released to the media.
Well hooray.
Oh dear. Isn't this more terrible anti-Americanism/Yank-bashing? Shouldn't we be fighting the real enemy (no not GWB and Tony) - the Iraqis, and sarcastic, cynical, wearied journos?
Now will some of those who reacted so badly to mild criticism of these gung ho, unprofessional, whooping cowboys have the grace to admit that those of us concerned by the extent of US blue on blues had a point?
I'm just waiting for the first post sympathising and commisserating with the family of the tank gunner AND the traumatised A-10 pilot and his family. (In fact I do feel enormously sorry for the poor so-and-so, and am increasingly inclined to blame the system, not individual aircrew - but it's not a good time to say so).
Now will some of those who reacted so badly to mild criticism of these gung ho, unprofessional, whooping cowboys have the grace to admit that those of us concerned by the extent of US blue on blues had a point?
I'm just waiting for the first post sympathising and commisserating with the family of the tank gunner AND the traumatised A-10 pilot and his family. (In fact I do feel enormously sorry for the poor so-and-so, and am increasingly inclined to blame the system, not individual aircrew - but it's not a good time to say so).
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I deliberately didn't post anything earlier because I wanted to see what the general reaction was first. My instincts proved me right, the feeling is no longer "well, it's just one of those things we have to accept".
The facts as we know them at the moment are:
1. The AFVs were in the location they were supposed to be in at the time they were supposed to be there.
2. They were flying the Union Flag
3. They had orange ID markers
4. They displayed Allied Cheverons
5. The pilot took 2 passes, shooting on both with civilians close by
6. After the 1st pass British soldiers in British uniforms waved and tried to warn the pilot
7. The optical scope on an A10 can id a target at 1500m. The pilot was flying at no more than 50m on each pass. Visibility has been described as "excellent".
8. The tank crews adjacent fired the colour of the day smoke marker to warn the A10 pilot
9. The pilot had not been engaged or shot at by either British forces, or Iraqis.
10. The pilot was out of his designated Limits of Exploitation.
In spite of all of this, the pilot still engaged, not once, but twice.
I am going to say nothing about what I think. Instead I will leave it for you, the reader of this thread to draw your own conclusion as to whether this incident was caused by the "fog of war", or culpable negligence.
The words of the soldiers are above for all to read. They represent views commonly held within the British army at present. More views of more soldiers can be found here, please do take a moment to read them:
Military City
When I represented some of these views in another forum I was pilloried as being rabidly anti-American. I was insulted as being a fool and din't know what I was talking about, and not representative of the feelings of the British army. I was told I was a wind-up merchant . I was told my views were held in contempt because I hadn't faced "combat" and as such that my views were irrelevant. I was told that the views of certain contributors on this forum were the norm not only of PPRuNe, but of all right-minded people.
Would those individuals care to read the above and the linked thread, and then step up and say the same thing to me now?
The facts as we know them at the moment are:
1. The AFVs were in the location they were supposed to be in at the time they were supposed to be there.
2. They were flying the Union Flag
3. They had orange ID markers
4. They displayed Allied Cheverons
5. The pilot took 2 passes, shooting on both with civilians close by
6. After the 1st pass British soldiers in British uniforms waved and tried to warn the pilot
7. The optical scope on an A10 can id a target at 1500m. The pilot was flying at no more than 50m on each pass. Visibility has been described as "excellent".
8. The tank crews adjacent fired the colour of the day smoke marker to warn the A10 pilot
9. The pilot had not been engaged or shot at by either British forces, or Iraqis.
10. The pilot was out of his designated Limits of Exploitation.
In spite of all of this, the pilot still engaged, not once, but twice.
I am going to say nothing about what I think. Instead I will leave it for you, the reader of this thread to draw your own conclusion as to whether this incident was caused by the "fog of war", or culpable negligence.
The words of the soldiers are above for all to read. They represent views commonly held within the British army at present. More views of more soldiers can be found here, please do take a moment to read them:
Military City
When I represented some of these views in another forum I was pilloried as being rabidly anti-American. I was insulted as being a fool and din't know what I was talking about, and not representative of the feelings of the British army. I was told I was a wind-up merchant . I was told my views were held in contempt because I hadn't faced "combat" and as such that my views were irrelevant. I was told that the views of certain contributors on this forum were the norm not only of PPRuNe, but of all right-minded people.
Would those individuals care to read the above and the linked thread, and then step up and say the same thing to me now?
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Why has it gone so quiet from the "America First, we never make mistakes" crowd?
Is it because the story hasn't been reported? Cnn don't seem to have any mention of it
ABC haven't either http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world...IraqIndex.html
I guess if you don't report it, it never happened hey? There's some pretty effective suppresion going on in the US media right now. Fox News "We report, you decide" hahahahaha I decided a long time ago that organisation was full of kaka, and it hasn't reported it either. It's amazing, it's like it never happened.
Well it did. We won't forget it in a hurry either
Is it because the story hasn't been reported? Cnn don't seem to have any mention of it
ABC haven't either http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world...IraqIndex.html
I guess if you don't report it, it never happened hey? There's some pretty effective suppresion going on in the US media right now. Fox News "We report, you decide" hahahahaha I decided a long time ago that organisation was full of kaka, and it hasn't reported it either. It's amazing, it's like it never happened.
Well it did. We won't forget it in a hurry either
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One of the US networks (can't remember if it was NBC or CNN) reported the "friendly fire" incident this morning. It included the report from the 18 year old on the hospital ship; a computer generated reconstruction including the coalition markings, Union Flag and smoke colour; the comments made by the other wounded soldier about the pilot being "out for a jolly" and "a cowboy"; and a brief summary of the British "friendly fire" incidents from GW1.
It was well reported and didn't attempt to make any excuses for the US pilot. Don't know if the other US networks will pick up on the same story.
It was well reported and didn't attempt to make any excuses for the US pilot. Don't know if the other US networks will pick up on the same story.
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Optical rectumosis
Maybe this American pilot sold real estate in real life or maybe he was a commercial airline pilot and then again maybe he was a newly assigned pilot and he had no previous combat experience and maybe he was a highly experienced combat pilot. In any case he made a mistake. I have talked to a lot of combat pilots and they have all stated that when the IOP (intensity of pucker) increases it has a direct effect on visual acuity. Whether he was not being shot at he may have had a perception of maybe he would be shot at so he acted first and then again he may have been a cowboy having his jollies. If the American Air Force feels he did a bad thing they have a court martial proceeding to take care of the offense. It doesn’t do anyone any good to crucify him in the British press and especially on this forum.
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Blue on blue
Having served on exchange with the US army as an IP, albeit some years ago, I can assert that they were very specific about vehicle recognition. They had their list of 40 or so vehicles that they had to know. furthermore they had some realy good flash cards of a number of other vehicles. The problem was that the only mandatory vehicles were those of US types and soviet block types. Most of the other stuff was "nice to know". As I recall this included all or the vast majority of Brit stuff. That may have changed but probably not, thus they owuldn't hve a clue what a scimitar looks like.
Neverthess, the ROE should be robust enough that all targets, particularly targets of oportunity, are identified as red prior to engagement. As previously mentioed the Aussies have not engaged targets unless certain. 90% certainty does not cut the mustard.
Neverthess, the ROE should be robust enough that all targets, particularly targets of oportunity, are identified as red prior to engagement. As previously mentioed the Aussies have not engaged targets unless certain. 90% certainty does not cut the mustard.
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Again, all quiet from:
SASless
T_richard
JetII
Danny
HAL Pilot
DESPERADO
Scud-U-like
I would invite you all to reiterate your comments on the theme of all criticism being levied at the US as anti-American and "yank bashing". SASless in particular, I would invite you to defend the actions of the USAF in this instance.
You were all quite happy to attack me personally on 2 other threads for suggesting that there are some members of your armed forces who have a disregard for the safety of their allies. You attacked me personally for suggesting that confidence in the US forces amongst the British is low. You attackd me personally for suggesting that the perception of some in the British forces is that some of their US counterparts are gung-ho.
I hear nothing but silence from you in the face of what has happened. I hear nothing but silence from you when the voices of british Servicemen in this thread resound with anger. I hear nothing but silence from you when you know your attacks and insults will be met with a harsh response. I hear nothing but silence from you when others feel the same way I do. I hear nothing but silence from you when it is British lives that were lost!
In light of what has been written about the circumstances of this incident, in light of the views being expressed by servicemen in the media, in light of the views expressed by british servicemen on this forum...... Would you like to re-appraise your comments? Would you like to share in our anger? Would you be willing to admit you may have been wrong? Would you be willing to admit we may have had a point? Would you admit that something urgently needs to be done to stop this from happening again? Would you join us in calling for a full enquiry? Would you join us in calling for the pilot to be Court Martialled and punished if his actions are found negligent?
Or will I hear your silence?
SASless
T_richard
JetII
Danny
HAL Pilot
DESPERADO
Scud-U-like
I would invite you all to reiterate your comments on the theme of all criticism being levied at the US as anti-American and "yank bashing". SASless in particular, I would invite you to defend the actions of the USAF in this instance.
You were all quite happy to attack me personally on 2 other threads for suggesting that there are some members of your armed forces who have a disregard for the safety of their allies. You attacked me personally for suggesting that confidence in the US forces amongst the British is low. You attackd me personally for suggesting that the perception of some in the British forces is that some of their US counterparts are gung-ho.
I hear nothing but silence from you in the face of what has happened. I hear nothing but silence from you when the voices of british Servicemen in this thread resound with anger. I hear nothing but silence from you when you know your attacks and insults will be met with a harsh response. I hear nothing but silence from you when others feel the same way I do. I hear nothing but silence from you when it is British lives that were lost!
In light of what has been written about the circumstances of this incident, in light of the views being expressed by servicemen in the media, in light of the views expressed by british servicemen on this forum...... Would you like to re-appraise your comments? Would you like to share in our anger? Would you be willing to admit you may have been wrong? Would you be willing to admit we may have had a point? Would you admit that something urgently needs to be done to stop this from happening again? Would you join us in calling for a full enquiry? Would you join us in calling for the pilot to be Court Martialled and punished if his actions are found negligent?
Or will I hear your silence?
Last edited by kbf1; 1st Apr 2003 at 21:02.