RAF aircraft 'hit by US missile'
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I am going to make a final post on this issue in an attempt to calm things down a bit (me also, and point generally taken).
T-Rich: I accept wholeheartedly the first point you make.
As for the second, I reiterate what I have previously said, we will have to wait for the full facts to come out. There is a risk however that they never will, and therefore lessons will not be learned.
After GW1 when the A10 attacked a formation of the Cheshires the pilots were immediately flown out of theatre and were never formally brought to book over the incident. The Americans (just like many other nations, Britian being no exception) don't like their dirty laundry being hung out to dry and whitewashed the incident. We can never be sure that a repeat isn't on the cards because we can't be sure that SOPs were ammended as a consequence of that incident.
As for bashing Americans, you can draw your own conclusions. I have my reasons for NOT hating them, but that is not to say I will not be critical of the US Military where I think it appropriate. My comments are made from a position of anger for many reasons and in the absence of the context gained in person-to-person conversation it is easy to read more into what I have written than was actually intended.
For those of you who took offence at what I have written, I apologise. This isn't the first time I have apologised in 3 years on this forum, it probably won't be the last. The poster that was put up came from an army bulletin board where opnion on this subject is at vast odds with the general opinion that has been voiced here. I belive it made some valid points and expected some criticism for it. Danny chose to remove it, and as this is his train set I will not seek to put it up elsewhere.
Gadget: In years to come I too will be able to say "9 years is nothing". You have been in a lot longer than I have, and fair play to you. My experience of working with the Americans has been decidedly mixed. Many were outstanding, some gave me cause for grave concern. I have met one officer of notable seniority who thought that "A-Rabs" were lower forms of human life and who held some "interesting" views on what should be done with them. I have met US servicemen with what I view as little regard for human life. I mentioned a "gung-ho cadre" in a previous post, that is not to imply the entire US military is the same, and it would be to distort my intentions to suggest otherwise.
Kirk:
The last part of your comments cause me a lot of concern. The US may be efficient at engaging the enemy, but is that any sort of defence that would satisfy the colleagues of those killed by american friendly fire? To suggest that mistakes do happen when there is a battle of high intensity going on all around is reasonable, but when incidents take place in relative lulls is not. If a threat assessment is low and the engagement intensity is low then it would be unreasonable to suggest that friendly fire incidents are nothing more than an a measure of efficiency. In this instance, if there were Scuds raining down and an imminent ground counter-attack your comments would bear scrutiny. In this instance I don't see that they do.
Danny: Final comments understood.
T-Rich: I accept wholeheartedly the first point you make.
As for the second, I reiterate what I have previously said, we will have to wait for the full facts to come out. There is a risk however that they never will, and therefore lessons will not be learned.
After GW1 when the A10 attacked a formation of the Cheshires the pilots were immediately flown out of theatre and were never formally brought to book over the incident. The Americans (just like many other nations, Britian being no exception) don't like their dirty laundry being hung out to dry and whitewashed the incident. We can never be sure that a repeat isn't on the cards because we can't be sure that SOPs were ammended as a consequence of that incident.
As for bashing Americans, you can draw your own conclusions. I have my reasons for NOT hating them, but that is not to say I will not be critical of the US Military where I think it appropriate. My comments are made from a position of anger for many reasons and in the absence of the context gained in person-to-person conversation it is easy to read more into what I have written than was actually intended.
For those of you who took offence at what I have written, I apologise. This isn't the first time I have apologised in 3 years on this forum, it probably won't be the last. The poster that was put up came from an army bulletin board where opnion on this subject is at vast odds with the general opinion that has been voiced here. I belive it made some valid points and expected some criticism for it. Danny chose to remove it, and as this is his train set I will not seek to put it up elsewhere.
Gadget: In years to come I too will be able to say "9 years is nothing". You have been in a lot longer than I have, and fair play to you. My experience of working with the Americans has been decidedly mixed. Many were outstanding, some gave me cause for grave concern. I have met one officer of notable seniority who thought that "A-Rabs" were lower forms of human life and who held some "interesting" views on what should be done with them. I have met US servicemen with what I view as little regard for human life. I mentioned a "gung-ho cadre" in a previous post, that is not to imply the entire US military is the same, and it would be to distort my intentions to suggest otherwise.
Kirk:
I am appalled by your pious and ill-informed comments. That we lose more lives to fratricide than enemy action could be taken as a fairly dramatic measure of the efficiency of the US at engaging the enemy.
Danny: Final comments understood.
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kbf1
I didn't say that. What I will say, though, is that it takes a better man to climb down than it does to let rip in the first place - these are difficult times. Good on yer for that, at least. There are others on this site who could do with learning from you.
Gadget
Gadget: In years to come I too will be able to say "9 years is nothing".
Gadget
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Noone so far has mentioned AWACS aircraft.
What exactly do these aircraft control? With whom do they operate? Is the "control" over the entire air battle area? Who controls the AWACS?
Do the AWACS have comms with things like missile batteries? What control function do they have in that respect?
Could the AWACS have seen the conflict develop and could they have done anything to stop this awful result?
Are AWACS being used in this conflict?
What exactly do these aircraft control? With whom do they operate? Is the "control" over the entire air battle area? Who controls the AWACS?
Do the AWACS have comms with things like missile batteries? What control function do they have in that respect?
Could the AWACS have seen the conflict develop and could they have done anything to stop this awful result?
Are AWACS being used in this conflict?
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Kbf1,
You were doing so well right up to the last bit!
Read my post again!
The next line reads ‘Of course, we must strive to reduce the chance of blue-on-blue engagements…’
I am not complacent.
You then go off again about reasonable vs unreasonable behaviour in circumstances about which you know nothing!
STOP SPECULATING!
And, to make it more plain for you, I fear that I AM a colleague of those killed.
Just stick with your apology and, in future, please apply a little more thought and consideration before sounding off in the first place!
You were doing so well right up to the last bit!
Read my post again!
The next line reads ‘Of course, we must strive to reduce the chance of blue-on-blue engagements…’
I am not complacent.
You then go off again about reasonable vs unreasonable behaviour in circumstances about which you know nothing!
STOP SPECULATING!
And, to make it more plain for you, I fear that I AM a colleague of those killed.
Just stick with your apology and, in future, please apply a little more thought and consideration before sounding off in the first place!
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kbf1
I have some issues with certain points in Your most recent post but I can read it without seeing red. Wouldn't you have made a better case for your argument if you ahd written your last reply first and skipped all the tasteless posts that preceded it? I assume you are grown man, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and further assume that you have some education. Given those two assumptions, isn't it likely that you could present your POV reasonably without inflamatory speculation and tasteless artwork. By the way, just because some other A**hole used it doesn't mean you have to. As my mother would say when I was young" If he jumped off a bridge would you"? THere may be a British alternative to that maxim
I have some issues with certain points in Your most recent post but I can read it without seeing red. Wouldn't you have made a better case for your argument if you ahd written your last reply first and skipped all the tasteless posts that preceded it? I assume you are grown man, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and further assume that you have some education. Given those two assumptions, isn't it likely that you could present your POV reasonably without inflamatory speculation and tasteless artwork. By the way, just because some other A**hole used it doesn't mean you have to. As my mother would say when I was young" If he jumped off a bridge would you"? THere may be a British alternative to that maxim
For Christ's sake, will some of you guys please stop suppositioning as to what may or may not have happened and who is to blame in all of this. What do you honestly think you will achieve by slagging people off when you haven't a blasted clue what actually went on.
Like Captain Kirk, I fear I may have lost a couple of mates of mine. My thoughts are with the families concerned and the community at Marham.
Like Captain Kirk, I fear I may have lost a couple of mates of mine. My thoughts are with the families concerned and the community at Marham.
No-one's answered the question. I can see that in the Falklands and even in Desert Storm, there was a real danger of enemy air attack, and AAA/SAM operators did not have the luxury of doing any more than follow well established procedures.
In these circumstances, with no credible air threat, surely there could and should have been more time for the Patriot operators to check and double check, and to demonstrate greater flexibility. The chances of it being an incoming 'Fencer' were, after all, much more than remote.
In these circumstances, with no credible air threat, surely there could and should have been more time for the Patriot operators to check and double check, and to demonstrate greater flexibility. The chances of it being an incoming 'Fencer' were, after all, much more than remote.
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TSP
I pray for your mates, that was my first comment at the beginning of this thread. Unfortunately some of your fellow men have followed the "ready", "Fire", "Aim" approach to analyzing the early reports to the end that The US was the great monster. I couldn't let that stand, but my apologies for my insensitivity. I could have walked away.
I pray for your mates, that was my first comment at the beginning of this thread. Unfortunately some of your fellow men have followed the "ready", "Fire", "Aim" approach to analyzing the early reports to the end that The US was the great monster. I couldn't let that stand, but my apologies for my insensitivity. I could have walked away.
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Jack - this came on top of reports of missiles beiing moved south [how I don't know] and shortly after the mad US soldier attacked his own. It happened live on radio, ground alert sounded after grenade attack, then breathless reporter said 'Now... oh - we have air alert, I see a missile, something has just blown up in the sky'
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Another tragic event in such a short timescale. More thoughts go out to even more family, friends and loved ones.
I found myself thinking 'I hope they weren't any mates of mine', then soon held that in check; no matter who it is RAF, USAF, USN etc, it's a bloody awful event.
My wife rang base to make sure I wasn't involved. Some snotty LAC fobbed her off in a rude and insensitive manner. Thank god for text messaging. Hope the involved have had the support they need and deserve.
Rest in peace.
Here's hoping for more happy times.
I found myself thinking 'I hope they weren't any mates of mine', then soon held that in check; no matter who it is RAF, USAF, USN etc, it's a bloody awful event.
My wife rang base to make sure I wasn't involved. Some snotty LAC fobbed her off in a rude and insensitive manner. Thank god for text messaging. Hope the involved have had the support they need and deserve.
Rest in peace.
Here's hoping for more happy times.
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The Det commander on a BBC interview said it the jet was #2 of a two-ship, and was 'doing everything correctly', including flying the right airspeed/altitude in the correct corridor.
RIP the two crew.
RIP the two crew.
SASless,
Thanks for the courteous reply, which made me think it through more clearly. I suppose that just because nothing has materialised air threat wise yet (beyond the small number of missiles to which you refer) it doesn't mean that they can't and that my assumption of a slightly more relaxed alert state being possible was erroneous. I wonder if in fact the threat state was even higher than usual as a direct result of the grenades going off. Could the two events even be directly linked, I wonder?
Thanks for the courteous reply, which made me think it through more clearly. I suppose that just because nothing has materialised air threat wise yet (beyond the small number of missiles to which you refer) it doesn't mean that they can't and that my assumption of a slightly more relaxed alert state being possible was erroneous. I wonder if in fact the threat state was even higher than usual as a direct result of the grenades going off. Could the two events even be directly linked, I wonder?
Once again a military aircrew thread has been used to throw uninformed opinion around as though it were fact. Theres also some unpleasant xenophobia in evidence.
An investigation is underway into this unfortunate incident and no doubt the cause will become clear. Its pointless to speculate on the cause because it could any one or more from a long list of possible causes. It could be equipment failure, a failure of procedures or even a human failing in someone young, inexperienced and under extreme pressure - how many contributors to this thread have been there?
Blue on blue is feature of military actions. I suspect it always has been. Remember the RAF F4 crew who shot down a Jaguar while on exercise? That incident occurred in peacetime, and others have listed incidents from the Falklands and other conflicts. So, its not just American bloodlust.
I too was initially angry and sad in about equal proportions. I'm now glad I'm sitting this one out, but still full of admiration for those young people risking everything for their country. My heartfelt condolences go to all involved in this tragic incident.
An investigation is underway into this unfortunate incident and no doubt the cause will become clear. Its pointless to speculate on the cause because it could any one or more from a long list of possible causes. It could be equipment failure, a failure of procedures or even a human failing in someone young, inexperienced and under extreme pressure - how many contributors to this thread have been there?
Blue on blue is feature of military actions. I suspect it always has been. Remember the RAF F4 crew who shot down a Jaguar while on exercise? That incident occurred in peacetime, and others have listed incidents from the Falklands and other conflicts. So, its not just American bloodlust.
I too was initially angry and sad in about equal proportions. I'm now glad I'm sitting this one out, but still full of admiration for those young people risking everything for their country. My heartfelt condolences go to all involved in this tragic incident.
Nemesis of the Proot Dynasty
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As an Anglo American, who has served in the R.A.F., I’m appalled at the uninformed, bigoted and generally stupid comments of some contributors to this thread. Although, we all know that some contributors can be relied on to come out of the woodwork and talk out of their ars*s.
Even senior commanders in theatre are unsure of the facts of the particular incidents in question, so how do these armchair buffoons see themselves as the sole guardians of the facts? A little restraint might be in order until the real facts are known and even then they should show some restraint. However, I doubt that facts are of any real interest to some contributors, so long as they can have their rant.
Sincere condolences to all the families of those killed in any of the incidents.
Even senior commanders in theatre are unsure of the facts of the particular incidents in question, so how do these armchair buffoons see themselves as the sole guardians of the facts? A little restraint might be in order until the real facts are known and even then they should show some restraint. However, I doubt that facts are of any real interest to some contributors, so long as they can have their rant.
Sincere condolences to all the families of those killed in any of the incidents.
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Thoughts go to the families and friends of the crew. You'll be missed by many.
Best wishes to the rest of you in theatre. It must be tough, wish we could help out instead of going to Tain each day!
Best wishes to the rest of you in theatre. It must be tough, wish we could help out instead of going to Tain each day!
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The families, friends and colleagues of both the downed crew and the Patriot battery are in my thoughts. I hope they can bring themselves to ignore the hurtful and abhorrent arguments of some of the thoughtless individuals who have posted here, and that they are allowed to repair their lives in peace.