RAF aircraft 'hit by US missile'
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Now come on....
The usual talking heads on Fox news were saying that, as there are clear guidelines and procedures governing the routing and IFF codes for coalition aircraft, it must be the RAF crew's fault for not following these strictly.
I am fully behind action in the Gulf and the US in general, but this makes my blood boil. I remember a Jag mate telling me how he was nearly shot down on the way back from a sortie in Gulf War I, as the IFF codes etc did not stop him being "painted" by Allied air defences and followed by F15s. The Jag resembles the Mirage (various variants of) from certain angles.
Fox made no mention of the blue-on-blue in Gulf War I (A10 vs British Army). My dad was in the SBS in combat and he said he lost more men to the US than the nation they were battling at the time. And this is going back some. Therefore, given the long and inglorious record of US blue-on-blue, the instant implied blame on the RAF flies inthe face of history.
Sad day indeed. Rant over, my thoughts return to the crew, families, friends and partners to whom my deepest sympathies extend.
(As a long-time lurker, it is sad that my first post is made through sorrow and anger).
I am fully behind action in the Gulf and the US in general, but this makes my blood boil. I remember a Jag mate telling me how he was nearly shot down on the way back from a sortie in Gulf War I, as the IFF codes etc did not stop him being "painted" by Allied air defences and followed by F15s. The Jag resembles the Mirage (various variants of) from certain angles.
Fox made no mention of the blue-on-blue in Gulf War I (A10 vs British Army). My dad was in the SBS in combat and he said he lost more men to the US than the nation they were battling at the time. And this is going back some. Therefore, given the long and inglorious record of US blue-on-blue, the instant implied blame on the RAF flies inthe face of history.
Sad day indeed. Rant over, my thoughts return to the crew, families, friends and partners to whom my deepest sympathies extend.
(As a long-time lurker, it is sad that my first post is made through sorrow and anger).
Grandpa Aerotart
I made the point about the US' habitual blue on blue months ago on Dunnunder.
Just cowboys.
When your ally inflicts greater casualties than the 'enemy' side do is it not time for some hard questions?
Sad for the families involved...my thoughts are with them.
Chuck.
Just cowboys.
When your ally inflicts greater casualties than the 'enemy' side do is it not time for some hard questions?
Sad for the families involved...my thoughts are with them.
Chuck.
Before we all start slagging off the Americans (and I am not defending anyone!!) lets just remember that blue-on-blue is not limited to just them (they seem to do more than most - but then they have more assets!). In the Falklands war a Type 42 RN destroyer (and I am not having a go at the RN either!) shot down an AAC helicopter. And our wonderful MOD tried to hide the fact/cover it up!!!
Lets just wait for the facts shall we?
Lets just wait for the facts shall we?
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I wonder if this is related? I heard it on radio, just after a US guy attacked his own alarms were going off all over and a Patriot fired.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/in...al/23GREN.html
... Shortly after the grenade attack, a Patriot missile was launched from this camp, about five miles south of Camp Pennsylvania. Sirens roared the alarm, and a mid-air explosion was seen overhead as the Patriot intercepted a missile. It was not immediately clear what kind of missile was shot down, or where it had been fired from.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/23/in...al/23GREN.html
... Shortly after the grenade attack, a Patriot missile was launched from this camp, about five miles south of Camp Pennsylvania. Sirens roared the alarm, and a mid-air explosion was seen overhead as the Patriot intercepted a missile. It was not immediately clear what kind of missile was shot down, or where it had been fired from.
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According to the BBC, the aircraft had no chance; "the Patriot missile travels at about Mach 3, and the aircraft was coming into land at less than Mach 1." D*mn! I KNEW we should have stuck with the Saro Supersonic Lander.
Sincere condolences to the crew's family.
Sincere condolences to the crew's family.
Everything is under control.
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My condolences to all involved in this tragedy. As said, we need to see the details. The point is made, and I agree, that, statistically, Americans will have more friendly fire incidents because they have more soldiers and more weapons. We do it to ourselves more than against allies, including in 1991. Any loss such as this is unacceptable and will be investigated. You can dump on the Americans but, if Britain is ever threatened, I would be there tomorrow if called up.
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Oh come on. UK..you already shot yourselves down yesterday including an American serviceman. Two Sea kings.
Bit of balance please.
Bit of balance please.
Last edited by Heartbreaker; 23rd Mar 2003 at 12:10.
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Without jumping to conclusions too much, even if the ac's IFF/SIF were U/S it doesn't mean that it can necessarily be engaged straight away. There are other ways to ID ac..... Let's see what info comes out.
My condolences to family and friends involved.
My condolences to family and friends involved.
This sort of blue on blue can never be condoned - it always indicates lax procedures or a cavalier regard of procedures. But in these circumstances, with no credible air threat, surely there should have been more time for the Patriot operators to check and double check. The chances of it being an incoming 'Fencer' were, after all, remote.
Will those two Ameriocan contributors who made the remarks about Britain's record in Northern Ireland and vis a vis the two Sea Kings please show some dignity, sense and sensitivity and edit or remove their crass remarks.
Will those two Ameriocan contributors who made the remarks about Britain's record in Northern Ireland and vis a vis the two Sea Kings please show some dignity, sense and sensitivity and edit or remove their crass remarks.
Let's see here.....two SeaKings run into one another....bloody idiots! From the same squadron....same ship....rank amateurs....don't they know what they are doing? Maybe we should not allow our guys to ride in Limey helicopters?
Seems to me to be an offensive concept....does not begin to square with the facts....only serves to show how close to the surface some questionable attitudes run. I did not hear that when that tragedy occurred. I seem to remember it was messages of condolences just as in the CH-46 crash.
As so many others have said.....wait until the facts are known before you trumpet your prejudice. In each of the cases presented.....mistakes were made. I dare say, we are not unique in that. What determines the difference between a professional and a non-professional?
Seems to me to be an offensive concept....does not begin to square with the facts....only serves to show how close to the surface some questionable attitudes run. I did not hear that when that tragedy occurred. I seem to remember it was messages of condolences just as in the CH-46 crash.
As so many others have said.....wait until the facts are known before you trumpet your prejudice. In each of the cases presented.....mistakes were made. I dare say, we are not unique in that. What determines the difference between a professional and a non-professional?
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A lot of allies have lost their lives in the last couple of days, and feelings on this thread are running high. Emotions are being vented, and that is a very good thing.
Can I ask that you just take a 5 minute pause before sending what you have written please. In that pause think about the men who have lost their lives, their families, friends and colleagues, and also the servicemen who will have to live with the consequences of this for the rest of their lives.
Thank you. On behalf of everyone who helps run this site our deepest and heartfelt condolences to all involved. Pray to whichever God you choose that this is over very soon.
Sick Squid
For all the PPRuNe Admin Staff.
Can I ask that you just take a 5 minute pause before sending what you have written please. In that pause think about the men who have lost their lives, their families, friends and colleagues, and also the servicemen who will have to live with the consequences of this for the rest of their lives.
Thank you. On behalf of everyone who helps run this site our deepest and heartfelt condolences to all involved. Pray to whichever God you choose that this is over very soon.
Sick Squid
For all the PPRuNe Admin Staff.
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SASless, I don't really want to turn this thread into a slanging match, so I'll keep this brief:
There's a lot of difference between falling of a bicycle and being pushed off one by your friend!
There's a lot of difference between falling of a bicycle and being pushed off one by your friend!
A search has begun for the downed aircraft. Does this mean that they are going to recover wreckage, or is there still a chance that the crew survived? I know that the ACES seats used by the USAF have transmitters in them to locate the seats after they have been used. Do the Martin Baker seats have anything similar, and if so, are we to assume that there was no chance to eject, seeing as we have heard no reports about the crew?
Ginge
Ginge
Mutley,
When you discover the "perfectly run" war...please let me know. Artillery has fallen short for ages, Squadie's have shot their own by mistake, gunship rockets have hit the wrong place, air strikes have hit the wrong people, and anti-aircraft fire has targetted friendly aircraft. That is the nature of war. It is a very complex business that is far from a perfect process. Mistakes as have happened with the Tornado aircraft are a tragedy. The bombing of friendly troops is a tragedy. Two aircraft running into one another is a tragedy. Does it matter, how it happens if other than premeditation?
If you wish to use the "pushed off the bike" concept....we could also apply that to one of the Seaking crews. Someone there made a mistake too....and people died. I did not see any posts suggesting that.
My point is simple.....some of the posters here....and it is clear who they are....take every opportunity to slang anyone other than themselves when unfortunate events occur. They ignore the facts, the circumstances, and the motivation. It usually stems from a position of predjudice and arrogance. Usually, there are enough other participants to this forum that accept the truth and in time remind those that hold such objectionable opinons of the error of their position.
We are engaged in war with a common enemy...we are on the same side. Mistakes happen in war.....and usually people die as a result. War is a very dangerous business at the best of times. Fratricide has been a problem for all....all....military forces.
Irrational ranting does not help the situation and certainly identifies the one doing the ranting as being off base. It could just as easily have been an American aircraft and crew.....and if the air defence system was manned by British crews.....they too could have made the same mistake. We do not know if it was a crew error, a system error, a command and control error, or what.....to immediately throw out the kinds of statements made by some, is simply...."sad".
When you discover the "perfectly run" war...please let me know. Artillery has fallen short for ages, Squadie's have shot their own by mistake, gunship rockets have hit the wrong place, air strikes have hit the wrong people, and anti-aircraft fire has targetted friendly aircraft. That is the nature of war. It is a very complex business that is far from a perfect process. Mistakes as have happened with the Tornado aircraft are a tragedy. The bombing of friendly troops is a tragedy. Two aircraft running into one another is a tragedy. Does it matter, how it happens if other than premeditation?
If you wish to use the "pushed off the bike" concept....we could also apply that to one of the Seaking crews. Someone there made a mistake too....and people died. I did not see any posts suggesting that.
My point is simple.....some of the posters here....and it is clear who they are....take every opportunity to slang anyone other than themselves when unfortunate events occur. They ignore the facts, the circumstances, and the motivation. It usually stems from a position of predjudice and arrogance. Usually, there are enough other participants to this forum that accept the truth and in time remind those that hold such objectionable opinons of the error of their position.
We are engaged in war with a common enemy...we are on the same side. Mistakes happen in war.....and usually people die as a result. War is a very dangerous business at the best of times. Fratricide has been a problem for all....all....military forces.
Irrational ranting does not help the situation and certainly identifies the one doing the ranting as being off base. It could just as easily have been an American aircraft and crew.....and if the air defence system was manned by British crews.....they too could have made the same mistake. We do not know if it was a crew error, a system error, a command and control error, or what.....to immediately throw out the kinds of statements made by some, is simply...."sad".
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When I wrote, "rant over", I meant about Fox TV's talking heads blaming the RAF crew for the Patriot intercept. And they went on to talk about the "horrific losses" sustanied by the Tornado last time around. They did not mention the JP233 and its delivery profile, but sought to imply that the Tornado and/or RAF aircrews have a history of losses due to inadequate kit or training. That is what I find insulting. The Patriot was a tragedy, and my heart also goes out to the men or women who fired the missile and must be going through hell. The US, too, has my full support and always has. 
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New Helpline Number
If I could just go slightly 'off subject' for a minute, the new helpline telephone number for the RAF is 08457 800900. Not now the extension numbers as reported in the media until yesterday.
Fingers crossed for the GR4 crew, I prey they got out in time
Fingers crossed for the GR4 crew, I prey they got out in time
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GOod Morning All,
First my condolences to the families of all the brave souls who have or will die in this awful conflict.
Secondly, the first page of this thread is basically a rock thowing party against the US military. Weell you may have spoken too soon, according to MSNBC at 1025 hrs EST the British warplane's ID transponder may have failed. This has not been confirmed by other news services, but it suggests that those of you who despise the US, its people, and its military might want to wait until the facts are in before you start throwing the sh*t.
Of course, based on what I have read on this website, weaving facts into your anti-american rants might take the purpose out of your lives
First my condolences to the families of all the brave souls who have or will die in this awful conflict.
Secondly, the first page of this thread is basically a rock thowing party against the US military. Weell you may have spoken too soon, according to MSNBC at 1025 hrs EST the British warplane's ID transponder may have failed. This has not been confirmed by other news services, but it suggests that those of you who despise the US, its people, and its military might want to wait until the facts are in before you start throwing the sh*t.
Of course, based on what I have read on this website, weaving facts into your anti-american rants might take the purpose out of your lives
Last edited by T_richard; 23rd Mar 2003 at 14:39.
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I deleted my previous post which came across a completely anti American which I certainly am not. I apologise.
I do however maintain that this happens far too often with the American forces. Decision making is an essential aspect of military operations and it is where, as human beings, we are supposed to be superior to any computer system.
Before that Patriot was fired I would like to think that the operator weighed up a number of possibilities. Likely threat, profile being flown by the "target", visible identification (maybe), the ACO's. Even if the Tornado wasn't sqwawking (we don't know) would you/should you still fire if when the above points are considered, it doesn't quite add up. I know that decisions have to be made VERY quickly, but that is what they/we get paid for.
Maybe the above options were considered. Maybe not.
Heartfelt condolances to family and friends of ALL casualties of this conflict.
I do however maintain that this happens far too often with the American forces. Decision making is an essential aspect of military operations and it is where, as human beings, we are supposed to be superior to any computer system.
Before that Patriot was fired I would like to think that the operator weighed up a number of possibilities. Likely threat, profile being flown by the "target", visible identification (maybe), the ACO's. Even if the Tornado wasn't sqwawking (we don't know) would you/should you still fire if when the above points are considered, it doesn't quite add up. I know that decisions have to be made VERY quickly, but that is what they/we get paid for.
Maybe the above options were considered. Maybe not.
Heartfelt condolances to family and friends of ALL casualties of this conflict.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Guardian:
British defence chiefs said today that an investigation has been launched into the shooting down of an RAF Tornado by a US Patriot missile battery while it was returning from a mission over Iraq early this morning.
The defence secretary, Geoff Hoon, told BBC1's Politics Show that "urgent reviews" were under way into the "friendly fire" incident, which has left two British airmen missing close to the Kuwaiti border.
Group Captain Al Lockwood, the spokesman for British forces in the Gulf, said a joint UK and US investigation had been launched. "We will get to the bottom of it to make sure there is no repetition," he said. "We're looking now for the evidence of the aircraft's crash site - and obviously the crew members."
US central command today confirmed that a Tornado GR4, the fighter-bomber version of the aircraft, was returning from an operational mission early Sunday when it was "engaged" by the missile battery.
The Ministry of Defence later announced that the jet was based at RAF Marham in Norfolk. A spokesman said: "The next of kin have been informed. Two airmen remain missing."
The commander of British troops in the Gulf, Air Marshal Brian Burridge, admitted this morning that one of his planes had been shot down "by mistake".
Air Marshal Burridge, speaking from central command in Qatar, told BBC1's Breakfast with Frost that coalition forces were now "deeply engaged" in searching for the downed aircraft. "This is a sad moment but we will put it behind us as quickly as we can in a military sense and carry on to our objective," he said.
British defence chiefs said today that an investigation has been launched into the shooting down of an RAF Tornado by a US Patriot missile battery while it was returning from a mission over Iraq early this morning.
The defence secretary, Geoff Hoon, told BBC1's Politics Show that "urgent reviews" were under way into the "friendly fire" incident, which has left two British airmen missing close to the Kuwaiti border.
Group Captain Al Lockwood, the spokesman for British forces in the Gulf, said a joint UK and US investigation had been launched. "We will get to the bottom of it to make sure there is no repetition," he said. "We're looking now for the evidence of the aircraft's crash site - and obviously the crew members."
US central command today confirmed that a Tornado GR4, the fighter-bomber version of the aircraft, was returning from an operational mission early Sunday when it was "engaged" by the missile battery.
The Ministry of Defence later announced that the jet was based at RAF Marham in Norfolk. A spokesman said: "The next of kin have been informed. Two airmen remain missing."
The commander of British troops in the Gulf, Air Marshal Brian Burridge, admitted this morning that one of his planes had been shot down "by mistake".
Air Marshal Burridge, speaking from central command in Qatar, told BBC1's Breakfast with Frost that coalition forces were now "deeply engaged" in searching for the downed aircraft. "This is a sad moment but we will put it behind us as quickly as we can in a military sense and carry on to our objective," he said.