Misinformation or Treason??
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Misinformation or Treason??
Gavin Hewitt has just (1720 Z) made a live broadcast from an armoured column saying that the column is approaching the city of ******** (he gave the name in clear but I don't want to compound the act) and that he can clearly see the lights of the city.
If this is not deliberate misinformation, should he and the BBC be accused of giving away secrets that could place the lives of coalition forces in grave danger???
If this is not deliberate misinformation, should he and the BBC be accused of giving away secrets that could place the lives of coalition forces in grave danger???
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Why shouldn't he?
Come on man, EVERY armoured column has a blinkin front line reporter with it!! The only reason we are not getting Videofone piccys is cos they haven't had time to stop and set it up!!
The MOD and the Pentagon are managing the information war on this one. I should imagine, that by now every town and city in southern Iraq has an armoured column of some description approaching it!!
Chill out and enjoy the ring side spectacle!!
Come on man, EVERY armoured column has a blinkin front line reporter with it!! The only reason we are not getting Videofone piccys is cos they haven't had time to stop and set it up!!
The MOD and the Pentagon are managing the information war on this one. I should imagine, that by now every town and city in southern Iraq has an armoured column of some description approaching it!!
Chill out and enjoy the ring side spectacle!!
Come on, Wholigan. Sense of proportion?
Do you think the Iraqi's don't notice the dust clouds as these columns advance? That their own SF aren't monitoring the advance? That this reporter didn't get what he was going to say cleared? (That someone didn't need to tell him exactly where they were approaching?)
And technically, since he's a Brit reporter with a US armoured unit, is it really treason, technically speaking?
Do you think the Iraqi's don't notice the dust clouds as these columns advance? That their own SF aren't monitoring the advance? That this reporter didn't get what he was going to say cleared? (That someone didn't need to tell him exactly where they were approaching?)
And technically, since he's a Brit reporter with a US armoured unit, is it really treason, technically speaking?
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Sorry folks, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I know that I would feel rather uncomfortable if I were in an armoured column that had just had its exact position given in location and time terms.
If this is - indeed - what we wanted to tell the Iraqis then I would have no problem with it. And it probably is - as I said "If this is not deliberate misinformation ..."
PS - it's rather dark in the desert at the time of the report (
"..can cleary see the lights of the city" ), so not sure how far you'd see the dust clouds? Maybe one of my Army mates could tell me? Are their SF in the right place at the right time and are they that good and are the comms necessary still working???? I don't know --- do you?
If this is - indeed - what we wanted to tell the Iraqis then I would have no problem with it. And it probably is - as I said "If this is not deliberate misinformation ..."
PS - it's rather dark in the desert at the time of the report (
"..can cleary see the lights of the city" ), so not sure how far you'd see the dust clouds? Maybe one of my Army mates could tell me? Are their SF in the right place at the right time and are they that good and are the comms necessary still working???? I don't know --- do you?
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I dunno I admit it is facinating to watch, but it just re-enforces my feeling that there is nothing the media won't turn into a circus, famine, flood ,war , dead Princess's missing children, they will be there, wandering around with mikes mouthing empty platitudes.
We had a example yesterday when the parent of a missing child were hauled in front of the cameras as seems to be the protocol now, after he body was found, preferably as emotionaly broken as possible.
Its all show biz now, and the sad thing is I am as guilty as anybody for watching it.
I am starting to loath the Media.
We had a example yesterday when the parent of a missing child were hauled in front of the cameras as seems to be the protocol now, after he body was found, preferably as emotionaly broken as possible.
Its all show biz now, and the sad thing is I am as guilty as anybody for watching it.
I am starting to loath the Media.
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Wholigan I'm with you on this one.
As someone who has been in said environment, it is disorientating, noisy, greasy, dirty, tiring ( v. tiring especially when the adrenalin stops flowing)...and the last thing I want is someone telling the rest of the world via a videophone who I am, where I am, what I am doing, and where I am going.
This operation has seen new depths charted by the media with their ability to generate something out of nothing, pump up their own importance, and whinge like b*****y when they don't get what they think they are entitled to (Cen Com - Qatar and one journo on Sky News whinging that they are not being told anything - reason because you immediately tell the whole world and remove any ( note - any) element of surprise).
Adding a phrase like 'I can't tell you everything because I'm not allowed to...' seems to be the latest weapon in the 'I'm more important than you game '. There is no way any of them would be told anything that could jepordise any element of the operation!
Why have some of the oil wells been torched ? Probably because someone during the last round (Gulf War I) gobbed off on TV about being able to see the cities for miles - the Iraqi government soon sorted that out.
'Nuff said.
G
As someone who has been in said environment, it is disorientating, noisy, greasy, dirty, tiring ( v. tiring especially when the adrenalin stops flowing)...and the last thing I want is someone telling the rest of the world via a videophone who I am, where I am, what I am doing, and where I am going.
This operation has seen new depths charted by the media with their ability to generate something out of nothing, pump up their own importance, and whinge like b*****y when they don't get what they think they are entitled to (Cen Com - Qatar and one journo on Sky News whinging that they are not being told anything - reason because you immediately tell the whole world and remove any ( note - any) element of surprise).
Adding a phrase like 'I can't tell you everything because I'm not allowed to...' seems to be the latest weapon in the 'I'm more important than you game '. There is no way any of them would be told anything that could jepordise any element of the operation!
Why have some of the oil wells been torched ? Probably because someone during the last round (Gulf War I) gobbed off on TV about being able to see the cities for miles - the Iraqi government soon sorted that out.
'Nuff said.
G
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gijoe & wholigan behind you on this one. This might be operations where people are getting killed in, so far 2 US KIA, 12 more died in the chopper crash (we wont mention AH64 hellfiring an A1 tank)....but the news people turn it into a farce.
This is not the way to run a war, telling the enemy over the TV where you are, the size, condition and composition of your forces, what their objectives are, the routes of advance, when theyll be there etc etc....bloody awfull.
The Iraqi's dont even need their own intelligence (huh?) elements for intel gathering on the enemy...they have CNN, and BBC, and Skynews, and Reuters and and ...
The only reason the yanks havent been F*#@ed up already is cause the Iraqi's are apathetic, demoralised, ill-equipped, badly led and unmotivated.
Remember Somalia, I think, the CNN Camera crews were waiting on the beach filming, with spotlights, as the special forces elements came ashore in 'stealth' mode trying not to be seen by the enemy.
By all means take the reporters with you, give them 35mm still camera's, give them high fidelity video cameras , let them tell the whole story............3 days later when its all over.
This is not the way to run a war, telling the enemy over the TV where you are, the size, condition and composition of your forces, what their objectives are, the routes of advance, when theyll be there etc etc....bloody awfull.
The Iraqi's dont even need their own intelligence (huh?) elements for intel gathering on the enemy...they have CNN, and BBC, and Skynews, and Reuters and and ...
The only reason the yanks havent been F*#@ed up already is cause the Iraqi's are apathetic, demoralised, ill-equipped, badly led and unmotivated.
Remember Somalia, I think, the CNN Camera crews were waiting on the beach filming, with spotlights, as the special forces elements came ashore in 'stealth' mode trying not to be seen by the enemy.
By all means take the reporters with you, give them 35mm still camera's, give them high fidelity video cameras , let them tell the whole story............3 days later when its all over.
Last edited by Skaz; 21st Mar 2003 at 19:46.
"By all means take the reporters with you, give them 35mm still camera's, give them high fidelity video cameras , let them tell the whole story............3 days later when its all over."
I can find little to disagree with in this statement - though a 6-12 hour opsec delay would surely be adequate before transmission of censored/cleared reports, with the full story following after the war?
I must say that the need to turn everything into live feeds, to cater for the rolling news channels is unnecessary, and mitigates against intelligent reporting and analysis. You just run the images as they come in, with some sketchy commentary by some know-nothing glam TV face who has no knowledge of defence and no real sympathy or empathy with those he accompanies. It's not the news I'd like to be watching, I have to say.
But please don't write us all off with the same broad brush.
I can find little to disagree with in this statement - though a 6-12 hour opsec delay would surely be adequate before transmission of censored/cleared reports, with the full story following after the war?
I must say that the need to turn everything into live feeds, to cater for the rolling news channels is unnecessary, and mitigates against intelligent reporting and analysis. You just run the images as they come in, with some sketchy commentary by some know-nothing glam TV face who has no knowledge of defence and no real sympathy or empathy with those he accompanies. It's not the news I'd like to be watching, I have to say.
But please don't write us all off with the same broad brush.
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Jacko, I agree that 12 hours would be sufficient. It was the fact that it was live and "real time" that concerned me somewhat. And please don't worry, I can't even paint with a "broad-brush" let alone write with one. So you are safe mate!
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Wholi is right in principle and there are no ifs and buts.
What is broadcast to us is also broadcast to the enemy (is it OK to use that word?).
Whatever lifts our morale and the morale of the Alliance Forces must depress the morale of the enemy.
So if a non-specific statement about the advance of the Coalition Forces can un-nerve the Enemy, it can only be to the good.
What is broadcast to us is also broadcast to the enemy (is it OK to use that word?).
Whatever lifts our morale and the morale of the Alliance Forces must depress the morale of the enemy.
So if a non-specific statement about the advance of the Coalition Forces can un-nerve the Enemy, it can only be to the good.
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On this evenings ITN news ( i think )
Michael Nicholson reported on tonights bombing, on both occasions in relation to the attacks he mentioned that from where he was some of the bombing looked like it might be indiscriminate, as soon as he said it he was chopped.
Michael Nicholson reported on tonights bombing, on both occasions in relation to the attacks he mentioned that from where he was some of the bombing looked like it might be indiscriminate, as soon as he said it he was chopped.
I would suggest.....one cannot be too stealthy while poncing around the desert in a formation of armored vehicles. The Iraqi's might not set the world on fire (Oops! Poor choice of words!) as soldiers.....but they too can probably figger it out when the Hussie's and Groundbound Cav show up in the middle of the night sounding like a couple of thousand Jack Benny's walking around! Armored formations do tend to wake the neighbors when they play.
It was a bit of a gaff.....but by the time the Baghdad Command Staff heard it....it would be too late to do much anyhow.
It was a bit of a gaff.....but by the time the Baghdad Command Staff heard it....it would be too late to do much anyhow.
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With you on this one mate, hundreds of armoured vehicles smoking through the desert ( and more specifically the villages as we saw) will not go unnoticed.....even if the Iraqi intel machine has been crippled HUMINT will be readily available ie. home phone or cell to their mates in the next village! and lets face it we all know where the armoured column is going.....duh!!!? Unless they are stopping for tea and bickies somewhere, there is not a drama in throwing away the odd village name...if you can pronounce it you deserve to be able to broadcast it!
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I had a moan at a press course last year about an incident in GW1 where the cameras, interviewing the first Tornado pilot returning from his mission also showed the first Tornado of wave two going off.
I have not seen ANY RAF ground shots so far. Maybe that lesson was learnt.
I have not seen ANY RAF ground shots so far. Maybe that lesson was learnt.
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haha, you guys are funny....yeah lets stop food a bit of brekkie and brew some 'ol grey'
still, you have to agree that the less intel the 'enemy' gets , the better. Why should 'your' side volunteer any info for the poor sods on the sharp end of your stick?
Jonathan Man on cnn just made some witty comment re the news that rexxxxxan guard commanders are speaking to the c1a re surrendering...."are they toying with us?" if they are, youll be the last to know, Jonnie
this might be true, it might not be , welcome to the world of misinformation, 'tis war after all
re the sound of a whole armoured division tip toe-ing thru the desert....ok, so some humint might reach the commanders...like in Somalia, same trick was used, cellphones....but some little goatherder wont know a Bradley from a Warrior, wont know a TOW from a toilet pipe nor a self propelled artillery piece from a Caterpillar....and if he does, he aint no little goatherder and the little bastard should be shot on sight
still, you have to agree that the less intel the 'enemy' gets , the better. Why should 'your' side volunteer any info for the poor sods on the sharp end of your stick?
Jonathan Man on cnn just made some witty comment re the news that rexxxxxan guard commanders are speaking to the c1a re surrendering...."are they toying with us?" if they are, youll be the last to know, Jonnie
this might be true, it might not be , welcome to the world of misinformation, 'tis war after all
re the sound of a whole armoured division tip toe-ing thru the desert....ok, so some humint might reach the commanders...like in Somalia, same trick was used, cellphones....but some little goatherder wont know a Bradley from a Warrior, wont know a TOW from a toilet pipe nor a self propelled artillery piece from a Caterpillar....and if he does, he aint no little goatherder and the little bastard should be shot on sight
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Same press course. GWI, enthusiatic, brave, and foolhardy FoxNews reporter standing on hotel roof watching the Scuds dropping in.
"Wow. That one was way off. I think it was going for the airbase but it was way off. At least a mile away."
Just in case you were not sure exactly how much you had missed by he obligingly covered the missile hit with his camera.
When the rest of the Brit press emerged from the air raid shelter they asked him why he had been broadcasting fall of shot and helping the enemy.
"OMG I didn't think."
"Wow. That one was way off. I think it was going for the airbase but it was way off. At least a mile away."
Just in case you were not sure exactly how much you had missed by he obligingly covered the missile hit with his camera.
When the rest of the Brit press emerged from the air raid shelter they asked him why he had been broadcasting fall of shot and helping the enemy.
"OMG I didn't think."
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There was live ground shots and in the background the next wave launching....looked like Hornets (maybe the Aussies?????). Additionally the Gulf News ran a front page article with a 5x7 happy snap of a Brit Harrier pilot preparing for ops with full name and rank included! The media here has been extremely well informed and the Iraq pages of the Gulf News are very very accurate and informative (an Intelo's dream come true!). I can verify the accuracy by correlating it to the ops we are observing. There is a gross misconception on how things run out here and more importanty when it comes to these ops there are no secrets as all these states require full up front declaration of callsigns, types and numbers and intentions/destination on, I might add, civil frequencies. The Air Defense cells work next to the civvy controllers and its a mutual responsibility to ensure everything on the scope is sanctioned. This (as mentioned previously) is done on the civil frequencies and if required the challenges are done on the guard (ditress) frequency 121.5 and 243.0.
I am sure if there was a serious perceived threat, this arrangement would change and a lot closer co-ordination of sorties and movements with the GCC states would be conducted to arrange closed ops and not open as we have now. As it stands any goopter with a scanner can moniter the packages coming through from Eastern Arabia and beyond and the callsigns give most of it away.
I am sure if there was a serious perceived threat, this arrangement would change and a lot closer co-ordination of sorties and movements with the GCC states would be conducted to arrange closed ops and not open as we have now. As it stands any goopter with a scanner can moniter the packages coming through from Eastern Arabia and beyond and the callsigns give most of it away.
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Fox, yes, the threat on day one in GWI was obviously quite different. A fully functional air defence setup and I guess the need for Opsec was much higher.
The pilot's name issue, and photos, is something the RAF has been pushing forward. The PR opportnity for the home-boy story was being lost with all the operational anonimity of GW1.
I guess the answer now is you want the publicity so that the enemy can't disappear you.
The pilot's name issue, and photos, is something the RAF has been pushing forward. The PR opportnity for the home-boy story was being lost with all the operational anonimity of GW1.
I guess the answer now is you want the publicity so that the enemy can't disappear you.
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I am big on the PR thing for the guys and gals out representing and fighting for the policy of our governments and people. My concern is not the ongoing possible media bungles (and military spokesmen for that matter) on current Intel issues as I believe the Coalition war machine is really in control of things at the moment and short of a nasty Chemical/Bioligical or nuke detonation this should not change. The happiest possible outcome will be the securing of Iraq, regime change and stability in the region (optimistic but possible). One thing that will not stop, and will take a lot more time, effort and money is Terrorism. My point here is that whilst the coalition are in a very dominent and favourable postion now, FLTLT Bloggs who appeared on the front page of the Gulf News (and more importantly his family) could be subject to a personal attack maybe not now, maybe not this year or next, but ultimately someday.
Names and faces should not be blatted over the press, the SAS and similar mainatain this policy for a good reason and lets face it a Harrier throwing its arsenal downrange on enemy turf could be creating as much carnage (if not more) as a trooper wacking a section of men on a ground op.
Visors down, sunnies on, don't let the media know to whom we belong!
Names and faces should not be blatted over the press, the SAS and similar mainatain this policy for a good reason and lets face it a Harrier throwing its arsenal downrange on enemy turf could be creating as much carnage (if not more) as a trooper wacking a section of men on a ground op.
Visors down, sunnies on, don't let the media know to whom we belong!