AEOs?
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AEOs?
What with the MR4A not having an AEO slot, a probable excess of Navs/WSOs due to Eurofighter/C130Js etc, would I be correct in assuming that the need for AEOs will be greatly reduced and commisioning opportunities for AEOps severely restricted? 
I have no axe to grind ref commissioning WSOps to WSO for MRA4, but... With the demise of F3 as it is replaced by Eurofighter will there not be a considerable number of "good quality" WSOs looking for work, with MRA4 one of the few remaining options?? Could this mean chances of commissioning actually reduce, especially given current lack of numbers of WSOps. Just some thoughts from a bear with a very small brain!
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Dear Biggus
Just because they might be a "good quality" F3 WSO/Nav, doesn't make them an ideal candidate to be a Nav on the Mighty Bunter.
Different kettle of fish, or kipper, Old Boy.
Not being elitist for the Navs on the Kipper fleet, it's just an entirely different job. F3 Navs are trained to do their job, and our navs are trained to do their's. Not my call, something to do with the way they are streamed at Cranwell.
If they can hack multi engine Nav blah and also have something else to give, they go north young man!
Hate to have to stand up for Navs, but someone's got to, as no other b*****r will.
Hope no-one knows me by doing this, I'd get laughed out of the crew room.
RR
Just because they might be a "good quality" F3 WSO/Nav, doesn't make them an ideal candidate to be a Nav on the Mighty Bunter.
Different kettle of fish, or kipper, Old Boy.
Not being elitist for the Navs on the Kipper fleet, it's just an entirely different job. F3 Navs are trained to do their job, and our navs are trained to do their's. Not my call, something to do with the way they are streamed at Cranwell.
If they can hack multi engine Nav blah and also have something else to give, they go north young man!
Hate to have to stand up for Navs, but someone's got to, as no other b*****r will.
Hope no-one knows me by doing this, I'd get laughed out of the crew room.
RR
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"Just because they might be a "good quality" F3 WSO/Nav, doesn't make them an ideal candidate to be a Nav on the Mighty Bunter."
And that indeed may be a significant problem in the future. If anything the quality of Navs posted to Nimrods needs to be of the highest possible. Just because it is a large multicrew aircraft doesn't mean that we can accept the average.
At the moment crews can work around a poor AEO but a poor Nav team is a different kettle of kippers. No matter the quality and timely nature of the info presented by the sensor operators - if the Nav team are weak then the job doesn't get done.
And that job is becoming more and more complex as time goes on.
It requires a different mind set and a vastly different attitude from the "sexy" F3 to be part of the Nimrod team. Far better to take the fresh landscape of the Ab-initio nav or the experienced AEOp than the already AD trained nav from the 2 man world
Contentious I know but we need the best and I also accept that some Navs would cross over successfuly but I feel they would be the exception rather than the rule
Edited to include:
Bear in mind that Nav/AEO and AEOp should all end up as WSO/Ops. Current Navs will need to increase individual sensor skills of the AEO/AEOp whilst AEOs/AEOps will have to develop the broad range multitasking skills of the Navs. Everyone needs tactical awareness which comes with experience
And that indeed may be a significant problem in the future. If anything the quality of Navs posted to Nimrods needs to be of the highest possible. Just because it is a large multicrew aircraft doesn't mean that we can accept the average.
At the moment crews can work around a poor AEO but a poor Nav team is a different kettle of kippers. No matter the quality and timely nature of the info presented by the sensor operators - if the Nav team are weak then the job doesn't get done.
And that job is becoming more and more complex as time goes on.
It requires a different mind set and a vastly different attitude from the "sexy" F3 to be part of the Nimrod team. Far better to take the fresh landscape of the Ab-initio nav or the experienced AEOp than the already AD trained nav from the 2 man world
Contentious I know but we need the best and I also accept that some Navs would cross over successfuly but I feel they would be the exception rather than the rule
Edited to include:
Bear in mind that Nav/AEO and AEOp should all end up as WSO/Ops. Current Navs will need to increase individual sensor skills of the AEO/AEOp whilst AEOs/AEOps will have to develop the broad range multitasking skills of the Navs. Everyone needs tactical awareness which comes with experience
I obviously didn't explain myself very well, my fault I am sure, so I will try again. First of all let me state that I am a multi engine navigator, and have worked all my productive life with Airman Aircrew. Unlike the likes of Flaps 62, or whatever his name is, I have found the Airman Aircrew I have worked with to be some of the sharpist and most professional people I have ever met. They are often better than most of the Officers, and it has generally been a pleasure flying with them. I also, as I said before, have no axe to grind ref AEOps commissioning. (For clarity I will stick to the terms Nav, AEO and AEOp rather than WSO/WSOp).
What I was trying to do was point at a POSSIBLE alternate scenario before too many AEOps start predicting lots of commissioning opportunities ahead.
It is my OPINION (which is not necessarily the same as fact) that the RAF (in terms of senior neddies) regard fast jet pilots as sharper, more adaptable, etc than their ME colleagues. I think the same attitude is held towards navigators. This does not mean this attitude is correct, and is not to decry the undoubted ability of Nimrod Navs, JUST THAT IT IS HELD!! Bearing this supposed attitude in mind, what are the senior neddies going to do with ex F3 Navs when Eurofighter comes into service. Some of them are bound to be absorbed into other aircraft types, and bearing in mind they are "assumed" (by the system - NOT ME!) to be as capable, if not more so, than their ME equivalents, some are bound to go to ME fleets - including the Nimrod.
I personally know of an ex F-4 Nav who became a Nimrod Nav captain on 42 Sqn at St Mawgan, 2 ex VC-10 navs who became successful Nimrod navs, and just recently one of the Nimrod Sqns had a boss who was an ex C-130 nav, so it has been done before! I know the skills required of a Nimrod nav are different from those of F-3, but there is some common ground, and that is what the Nimrod OCU is required to teach!
Given the fact that the Nimrod fleet will go from 2 Navs + 1 AEO per crew (MR2) to 2 Nav/AEOs (MRA4), that there is a shortage of AEOps, and that ex F-3 navs will be coming on the market soon I merely feel it is POSSIBLE that commissioning opportunities for AEOps will be fewer on the ground.
That is the POSSIBLE scenario I wished to outline. That does not mean it will come true, NOR THAT I WISH IT TO!! Just some thoughts to kick around in a constructive manner in reply to the first comment that started this thread. I am afraid that I think that "day1 - week12" might be right in his original comment.
What I was trying to do was point at a POSSIBLE alternate scenario before too many AEOps start predicting lots of commissioning opportunities ahead.
It is my OPINION (which is not necessarily the same as fact) that the RAF (in terms of senior neddies) regard fast jet pilots as sharper, more adaptable, etc than their ME colleagues. I think the same attitude is held towards navigators. This does not mean this attitude is correct, and is not to decry the undoubted ability of Nimrod Navs, JUST THAT IT IS HELD!! Bearing this supposed attitude in mind, what are the senior neddies going to do with ex F3 Navs when Eurofighter comes into service. Some of them are bound to be absorbed into other aircraft types, and bearing in mind they are "assumed" (by the system - NOT ME!) to be as capable, if not more so, than their ME equivalents, some are bound to go to ME fleets - including the Nimrod.
I personally know of an ex F-4 Nav who became a Nimrod Nav captain on 42 Sqn at St Mawgan, 2 ex VC-10 navs who became successful Nimrod navs, and just recently one of the Nimrod Sqns had a boss who was an ex C-130 nav, so it has been done before! I know the skills required of a Nimrod nav are different from those of F-3, but there is some common ground, and that is what the Nimrod OCU is required to teach!
Given the fact that the Nimrod fleet will go from 2 Navs + 1 AEO per crew (MR2) to 2 Nav/AEOs (MRA4), that there is a shortage of AEOps, and that ex F-3 navs will be coming on the market soon I merely feel it is POSSIBLE that commissioning opportunities for AEOps will be fewer on the ground.
That is the POSSIBLE scenario I wished to outline. That does not mean it will come true, NOR THAT I WISH IT TO!! Just some thoughts to kick around in a constructive manner in reply to the first comment that started this thread. I am afraid that I think that "day1 - week12" might be right in his original comment.
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Biggus,
Agree with your thoughts that the problem will be the preconceptions of our Lords and Masters viz-a-viz that if a lad can be an F3 Nav then Nimrod will be dead easy.
BTW I am all in favour of more commissioning of AEOps and have advocated more "promotion from within" for some years and I am not in the AE trade at all. Just think it would be best for the Nimrod fleet as there is a vast pool of untapped potential out there extending beyond single sensor operation
Agree with your thoughts that the problem will be the preconceptions of our Lords and Masters viz-a-viz that if a lad can be an F3 Nav then Nimrod will be dead easy.
BTW I am all in favour of more commissioning of AEOps and have advocated more "promotion from within" for some years and I am not in the AE trade at all. Just think it would be best for the Nimrod fleet as there is a vast pool of untapped potential out there extending beyond single sensor operation
