God Botherers
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God Botherers
I spent Christmas in France and, although BBC Radio 4LW was sacrificed to that ritual of national self-flagellation, Test Match Special, I divined that our new Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Willliams, delivered a Christmas Message in which he proclaimed any war against Iraq as Unjust until the UN has endorsed it. Presumably His Grace has faith in the infallibility of the moral judgement of the leadership of our fellow permanent members of the UN Security Council, including The Russian and Chinese Republics. We must also presume that he has access to intelligence of such exceptional sensitivity that very few outside the Intelligence world (and few within it) share his privileged knowledge. I read somewhere that El Presidente sent a "heavy" round to Lambeth Palace to tell the Archbish that he ought to start rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. This is all good clean fun and the stuff of politics, but we still have an Established C of E and guess who is the Supreme Governor of the C of E, as well as Tony's boss. You gottit - Queenie. And to whom do the Cs - in -C and all the ranks of the heroic armed services owe allegiance ? Right again - Queenie.
I wonder what the Service chaplains are saying in their pulpits. They seem to have three options:-
" Don't do it fellas, its wicked!" which might be construed as incitement to mutiny, or
"Take no notice of the Welsh Windbag, guys! Once more into the breach...God is for Harry, England and Saint George! Get stuck in!". Which might upset their spiritual boss (but not the Archbishop of York), or
Keep stum and say nothing. which would lead one to wonder, yet again, what they are for.
Views from the coal-face would be welcome. Or perhaps the rhetoric from the prelates is now regarded as so irrelevant that no one cares. Methinks its time the C of E was disestablished.
A Happy (and safe) New Year to all current military aviators.
I wonder what the Service chaplains are saying in their pulpits. They seem to have three options:-
" Don't do it fellas, its wicked!" which might be construed as incitement to mutiny, or
"Take no notice of the Welsh Windbag, guys! Once more into the breach...God is for Harry, England and Saint George! Get stuck in!". Which might upset their spiritual boss (but not the Archbishop of York), or
Keep stum and say nothing. which would lead one to wonder, yet again, what they are for.
Views from the coal-face would be welcome. Or perhaps the rhetoric from the prelates is now regarded as so irrelevant that no one cares. Methinks its time the C of E was disestablished.
A Happy (and safe) New Year to all current military aviators.
You naughty fellow, FV! Surely you know that 'ours is not to reason why'..............
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hmmm.. methinks Archbish et. al. are merely playing the party political game, as do all who pay lip service when personal status is at stake.
If these God-botherer's were botheref by God I'm in no doubt the Great Author would be sharply remind them, He said "I will bless all nations that bless My people, and curse those who curse my people."
Does war with Iraq threaten Israel?
On another, equivalent note, have these clergy forgot the advice given them to 'honour the govt' appointed over you ( viz. render to Caesar) UNTIL such time as the govt. ceases to honour God with its actions?
This gives me little reason to want their spiritual leadership but greater reason to wonder if CYA tactics are part of the job spec...? Suffering's all well and good, until you have your bishopric.
If these God-botherer's were botheref by God I'm in no doubt the Great Author would be sharply remind them, He said "I will bless all nations that bless My people, and curse those who curse my people."
Does war with Iraq threaten Israel?
On another, equivalent note, have these clergy forgot the advice given them to 'honour the govt' appointed over you ( viz. render to Caesar) UNTIL such time as the govt. ceases to honour God with its actions?
This gives me little reason to want their spiritual leadership but greater reason to wonder if CYA tactics are part of the job spec...? Suffering's all well and good, until you have your bishopric.
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The Church ought to stick to what it does best: preaching to empty pews. The Archbishop of Canterbury, like any citizen, has the right to opine on matters of national importance, but his views are no more valid than anyone else's.
Does anyone really care what military chaplains think? I'm afraid I view them as an irrelevance in today's very secular military community. (There is certainly a need to retain a counselling service within our armed forces, but this should be provided without the hypocrictical nonsense of religion.)
If enough of us don't agree with views or actions of the de facto leader of our country (ie the Prime Minister), we can, at least, get rid of him, through the democratic process. The same cannot be said of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Supreme Governor of his Church.
Does anyone really care what military chaplains think? I'm afraid I view them as an irrelevance in today's very secular military community. (There is certainly a need to retain a counselling service within our armed forces, but this should be provided without the hypocrictical nonsense of religion.)
If enough of us don't agree with views or actions of the de facto leader of our country (ie the Prime Minister), we can, at least, get rid of him, through the democratic process. The same cannot be said of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Supreme Governor of his Church.
Last edited by Scud-U-Like; 1st Jan 2003 at 02:09.
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The Padre is there when you need him. There whoever your god is.
My Bishop is a former chaplain of the RN. I have always found those who have done mil service to be better with people in civvy street.
The demise of the church of England has been due to a failure to move with the times.
Each and every religion is entitled to their opinion. I thnk you will hear Muslim leaders saying much the same thing
My Bishop is a former chaplain of the RN. I have always found those who have done mil service to be better with people in civvy street.
The demise of the church of England has been due to a failure to move with the times.
Each and every religion is entitled to their opinion. I thnk you will hear Muslim leaders saying much the same thing
With neo-newspeak patois infesting our language, CCTV monitoring citizens' movements, mobile phone, fax and e-mail liable to interception, now that Oceania is being driven towards a conflict with Eurasia it seems that Orwell's 1949 vision is becoming horrifically accurate.
Love Big Brother and hate thoughtcrime, fellow citizens!
Love Big Brother and hate thoughtcrime, fellow citizens!
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The Root of All Evil...........Join Date: Jul 2002
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I agree that Muslims are entitled to have and to air their opinions. I do NOT agree that they should try and make their opinions our opinions! I am concerned about the freedoms that non Christian religions are given in this country (Mosques with loudspeakers, not wearing crash helmets, carrying ceremonial knives and swords), when compared with the freedoms we are given in their countries = not a lot. Try holding a Christain act of worship is Sordid Arabia, even in a private house, and see how quickly you are at the airport!
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Scud-U-Like
'at least, get rid of him, through the democratic process. The same cannot be said of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Supreme Governor of his Church '
Don't suppose the Supreme Governor of the Christian church would have a problem removing you if it suited Him.
As for suggesting that there is no place for chaplains - of any denomination or religion - in the armed forces is to take an arrogant stance on other people's views and beliefs. Guess you will not be needing the services of a Minister when you are close to death and seriously needing some hope that when you die there will be more than oblivion waiting for you; moreover, I don't suppose you will want your family to be comforted by the belief that you have gone somewhere nice.
The Archbishop of Canterbury should follow his Christian beliefs - mine include a deep antipathy towards appeasing dictators who use chemical weapons on their own people.
'Peace on Earth - through superior firepower'
Rev 6:22
'at least, get rid of him, through the democratic process. The same cannot be said of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Supreme Governor of his Church '
Don't suppose the Supreme Governor of the Christian church would have a problem removing you if it suited Him.
As for suggesting that there is no place for chaplains - of any denomination or religion - in the armed forces is to take an arrogant stance on other people's views and beliefs. Guess you will not be needing the services of a Minister when you are close to death and seriously needing some hope that when you die there will be more than oblivion waiting for you; moreover, I don't suppose you will want your family to be comforted by the belief that you have gone somewhere nice.
The Archbishop of Canterbury should follow his Christian beliefs - mine include a deep antipathy towards appeasing dictators who use chemical weapons on their own people.
'Peace on Earth - through superior firepower'
Rev 6:22
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A snippet from today's Sunday Times:- In Camp New York last John F Jensen, a padre, offered up a prayer. "Gracious and Almighty God, we believe that as You have trained us for battle, your hand will be with us in the event we are called upon", he told his flock.
An uncompromising renderer unto Caesar! God is for former English colonies and St George! Not sure about Harry though.
An uncompromising renderer unto Caesar! God is for former English colonies and St George! Not sure about Harry though.
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Old Fart, you are awful; but I like you...
Although you've pointed out an anomaly in the relationship between Church, the Crown and the Armed Forces, surely the point is that Dubya and his puppy aren't going to make a move until the UNSC is brow beaten into authorising it anyway?
Peace be with you, Shalom and Assalamu Alaikum...
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Although you've pointed out an anomaly in the relationship between Church, the Crown and the Armed Forces, surely the point is that Dubya and his puppy aren't going to make a move until the UNSC is brow beaten into authorising it anyway?
Peace be with you, Shalom and Assalamu Alaikum...
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Through difficulties to the cinema
Cunning Artificer
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One flew past my window just a moment ago. It was wearing a sky-blue flying helmet and had the Stars and Stripes fastened to its arse...
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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A2QFI - I would rather not stoop to their levels
Secondly - do you really think that the war is unrelated to Bush and his crew's stockholdings etc. Take a look at old Cheney and Rumsfeld and what exactly that are related to in terms of funding.
And who trusts Blair.
Not me
But a bullet in Saddam's head would be a bonus.
Secondly - do you really think that the war is unrelated to Bush and his crew's stockholdings etc. Take a look at old Cheney and Rumsfeld and what exactly that are related to in terms of funding.
And who trusts Blair.
Not me
But a bullet in Saddam's head would be a bonus.
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Still with you Scudders. Can't believe how many educated, intelligent people believe that stuff. Personally I think they can't cope with the thought that when you die, you cease to exist.
