BWoS and Block 2 FGA Typhoon
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BWoS and Block 2 FGA Typhoon
From the Sunday Telegraph online
Government demands savage Eurofighter cuts
By Mary Fagan and Robert Peston (Filed: 15/12/2002)
The Government wants to scrap the third and final tranche of the controversial Eurofighter combat aircraft programme and introduce major changes to the second phase in a move which could cost the taxpayer up to £2bn.
The Royal Air Force and the Ministry of Defence have been locked in negotiations with BAE Systems over their planned culling of the four-nation Eurofighter project. Under the terms of the original deal, the UK was to take 232 aircraft at a cost of about £10bn.
The shocking disclosure comes as relations between the MoD and BAE Systems are sinking to a record low. Last week BAE's shares slumped dramatically after the MoD said that it would not share an £800m cost over-run on two other major defence contracts being carried out by BAE, the Nimrod maritime patrol submarine and the Astute nuclear submarine.
The Eurofighter talks have been precipitated by demands from the RAF for a fighter aircraft with ground strike capability. The Eurofighter Typhoon as it is currently specified is an "air superiority" version with ground attack versions scheduled for inclusion only from 2007/2008 onwards.
The RAF is lobbying for the second batch of 89 aircraft to be radically changed to include ground attack capability. "They want open architecture so that it can be fitted with state-of-the-art weapons," said an executive. The military want the third tranche of 88 aircraft vastly scaled back or cancelled.
One industry insider said: "The RAF believes that the threat has moved on and that the operational requirements have changed. In the light of recent events, ground attack has become more important again. The result is that the RAF has been trying to change tranche two of Eurofighter into a ground attack aircraft and basically to get out of tranche three.
"However, this is a contract across all four nations in the Eurofighter programmes and so far the UK seems to be alone in the changes required."
The Government is believed to have already opened discussions on its proposals with its counterparts in Italy, Spain and Germany. "It is going to take months to make progress on talks with Germany," said a member of the Government.
The MoD has also been in intense negotiations over enhancing the capabilities of Nimrod (to include, among other changes, bombing capabilty) and the Astute nuclear submarine. Until last week, BAE was believed to be attempting to combine discussions on those changes with the RAF's demands on Eurofighter.
BAE was also trying to link discussions on sharing the cost over-runs on Nimrod and Astute with the Eurofighter modifications. However, the MoD decided against this. Last week, it forced BAE to make a Stock Exchange announcement about the losses on those contracts.
"We felt that it would be wrong to keep the City in the dark," said a minister.
Government demands savage Eurofighter cuts
By Mary Fagan and Robert Peston (Filed: 15/12/2002)
The Government wants to scrap the third and final tranche of the controversial Eurofighter combat aircraft programme and introduce major changes to the second phase in a move which could cost the taxpayer up to £2bn.
The Royal Air Force and the Ministry of Defence have been locked in negotiations with BAE Systems over their planned culling of the four-nation Eurofighter project. Under the terms of the original deal, the UK was to take 232 aircraft at a cost of about £10bn.
The shocking disclosure comes as relations between the MoD and BAE Systems are sinking to a record low. Last week BAE's shares slumped dramatically after the MoD said that it would not share an £800m cost over-run on two other major defence contracts being carried out by BAE, the Nimrod maritime patrol submarine and the Astute nuclear submarine.
The Eurofighter talks have been precipitated by demands from the RAF for a fighter aircraft with ground strike capability. The Eurofighter Typhoon as it is currently specified is an "air superiority" version with ground attack versions scheduled for inclusion only from 2007/2008 onwards.
The RAF is lobbying for the second batch of 89 aircraft to be radically changed to include ground attack capability. "They want open architecture so that it can be fitted with state-of-the-art weapons," said an executive. The military want the third tranche of 88 aircraft vastly scaled back or cancelled.
One industry insider said: "The RAF believes that the threat has moved on and that the operational requirements have changed. In the light of recent events, ground attack has become more important again. The result is that the RAF has been trying to change tranche two of Eurofighter into a ground attack aircraft and basically to get out of tranche three.
"However, this is a contract across all four nations in the Eurofighter programmes and so far the UK seems to be alone in the changes required."
The Government is believed to have already opened discussions on its proposals with its counterparts in Italy, Spain and Germany. "It is going to take months to make progress on talks with Germany," said a member of the Government.
The MoD has also been in intense negotiations over enhancing the capabilities of Nimrod (to include, among other changes, bombing capabilty) and the Astute nuclear submarine. Until last week, BAE was believed to be attempting to combine discussions on those changes with the RAF's demands on Eurofighter.
BAE was also trying to link discussions on sharing the cost over-runs on Nimrod and Astute with the Eurofighter modifications. However, the MoD decided against this. Last week, it forced BAE to make a Stock Exchange announcement about the losses on those contracts.
"We felt that it would be wrong to keep the City in the dark," said a minister.
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Is it really that much of a problem?
RAF will have some 136 in front line service - assume it buys 170odd - that leaves enough for an atrition reserve. If FOAS comes in at 2012 as is being mooted (according to Janes Defence Weekly) then potentially JSF will fill the gap anyway. I don't think its that bad a loss is it.
Now waiting for WEBF to spout on how we can use the money saved to restore the SHAR
RAF will have some 136 in front line service - assume it buys 170odd - that leaves enough for an atrition reserve. If FOAS comes in at 2012 as is being mooted (according to Janes Defence Weekly) then potentially JSF will fill the gap anyway. I don't think its that bad a loss is it.
Now waiting for WEBF to spout on how we can use the money saved to restore the SHAR
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MoD sticks by its plans for Typhoon
Monday December 16, 2002
The Guardian
The government yesterday insisted it remained committed to the pan-European combat aircraft Eurofighter Typhoon, downplaying a report that Britain wants to scale back orders for the jets.
"There's no change in the government's commitment to Typhoon; it remains an important programme not only for the RAF but also for the UK's defence industry," said a spokesman for the Ministry of Defence.
The Sunday Telegraph claimed that the government wanted a dramatic cut in the number of the jets its receives, in a move that could further sour relations with BAE Systems, the country's largest defence group. The newspaper said the government had opened talks with its counterparts in Italy, Spain and Germany, but said it seemed Britain was alone in wanting the changes.
The MoD said it had a contractual commitment to buy 55 Eurofighters in the first batch of deliveries and had a memorandum of understanding with its partners to buy another 89 planes in the second tranche and 88 in a third batch. The spokesman said the contract for tranche two was due to be signed next year, with tranche three in 2007.
The Sunday Telegraph said the RAF was lobbying for the second batch of aircraft to be radically changed to include ground attack capability, and wanted the third tranche scaled back or cancelled.
The Typhoon is being built by Eurofighter, a consortium of European Aeronautic Defence & Space, BAE and Finmeccanica. The partner nations in the project are Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain.
Relations between BAE and the government soured last week after BAE warned that changes to submarine and maritime patrol aircraft contracts were under discussion after the MoD refused to pick up the bill for delays.
BAE said there were "substantial schedule and cost implications" for the Astute submarine and Nimrod aircraft contracts.
Reuters
Monday December 16, 2002
The Guardian
The government yesterday insisted it remained committed to the pan-European combat aircraft Eurofighter Typhoon, downplaying a report that Britain wants to scale back orders for the jets.
"There's no change in the government's commitment to Typhoon; it remains an important programme not only for the RAF but also for the UK's defence industry," said a spokesman for the Ministry of Defence.
The Sunday Telegraph claimed that the government wanted a dramatic cut in the number of the jets its receives, in a move that could further sour relations with BAE Systems, the country's largest defence group. The newspaper said the government had opened talks with its counterparts in Italy, Spain and Germany, but said it seemed Britain was alone in wanting the changes.
The MoD said it had a contractual commitment to buy 55 Eurofighters in the first batch of deliveries and had a memorandum of understanding with its partners to buy another 89 planes in the second tranche and 88 in a third batch. The spokesman said the contract for tranche two was due to be signed next year, with tranche three in 2007.
The Sunday Telegraph said the RAF was lobbying for the second batch of aircraft to be radically changed to include ground attack capability, and wanted the third tranche scaled back or cancelled.
The Typhoon is being built by Eurofighter, a consortium of European Aeronautic Defence & Space, BAE and Finmeccanica. The partner nations in the project are Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain.
Relations between BAE and the government soured last week after BAE warned that changes to submarine and maritime patrol aircraft contracts were under discussion after the MoD refused to pick up the bill for delays.
BAE said there were "substantial schedule and cost implications" for the Astute submarine and Nimrod aircraft contracts.
Reuters
RJ - Fine tradition of RAF maritime patrol aircraft dropping bombs on recalcitant persons of a colonial disposition...
Seriously, suspect that 'bombing capability' = ability to launch Storm Shadow. The idea's been bandied around enough in certain publications for the DT's splendidly informed Defence team to have picked it up and reinterpreted it as turning the Nimrod into a bomber.
Also, wouldn't there be major financial problems just cancelling tranches? Perhaps not if the four partners agreed, but unilateral tranche chopping would be very costly indeed.
Still, if there's a shred of truth somewhere in the report, perhaps F-15Es might be in Santa's sack?
Seriously, suspect that 'bombing capability' = ability to launch Storm Shadow. The idea's been bandied around enough in certain publications for the DT's splendidly informed Defence team to have picked it up and reinterpreted it as turning the Nimrod into a bomber.
Also, wouldn't there be major financial problems just cancelling tranches? Perhaps not if the four partners agreed, but unilateral tranche chopping would be very costly indeed.
Still, if there's a shred of truth somewhere in the report, perhaps F-15Es might be in Santa's sack?
The video accompanying Dave Southwood's talk for the Gatbash certainly showed bombs falling from a Nimrod over a range, at the time of the Falklands...seems a bit wild anyway!
Doh! Because it's more expensive, in terms of unit cost (excluding R&D which has been paid for). It's not spend-to-save either, 'cos the mighty F-15E's operating costs are far in excess of those contractually guaranteed by Eurofighter GmbH.
If we need more FGA/OS aircraft quickly then step one is to run on the Jag Force by using the GI airframes from Cosford (these have on average 2,000 Flying hours 'on the clock' (of 7,500 hours cleared) and two have already been converted to GR3A standards, at a cost of c.£450k each).
The second stage is to buy Gripen.
If we need more FGA/OS aircraft quickly then step one is to run on the Jag Force by using the GI airframes from Cosford (these have on average 2,000 Flying hours 'on the clock' (of 7,500 hours cleared) and two have already been converted to GR3A standards, at a cost of c.£450k each).
The second stage is to buy Gripen.
