What's going on with RAF recruitment?
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What's going on with RAF recruitment?
I read in a newspaper yesterday that due to being 'desparately' short of pilots, the RAF has just taken on 19 former RNAF pilots, seven of whom are still trainees.
Now, while there is nothing at all wrong with this, and allowing for the mandatory degree of media mis-interpretation, my question is this:
Why are OASC turning away people who have passed selection because there is something (in my case it was knee to ankle measurements) that are preventing them becoming fast jet pilots? I knew this would be the case for me as far as regards FJ's, but I would have been bl**dy extatic to fly ME's or Rotary in the airforce. Unless something drastic has changed, C-130's haven't had the Martin Baker treatment.
If the airforce really is THAT short of pilots, surely this rule that everyone has to go to basic training with the potential to be a Tornado or Harrier driver must be changed.
As it is i'm now training for my commercial licences but having spent 15 years wanting to join and then the best part of 4-5 years preparing and planning to join, and having passed the aptitude and medical etc., only to be turned away for some daft rule is quite frustrating. As far as i'm aware, recruitment to the USAF is done by applying to fly a particular aircraft, therefore, bypassing this problem. Maybe it's time the MOD and RAF learnt a lesson and stopped making out that no one wants to join the services!!
Just interested to know what others think of this, or indeed people who have had the same experience as me.
Cheers,
bow5
Now, while there is nothing at all wrong with this, and allowing for the mandatory degree of media mis-interpretation, my question is this:
Why are OASC turning away people who have passed selection because there is something (in my case it was knee to ankle measurements) that are preventing them becoming fast jet pilots? I knew this would be the case for me as far as regards FJ's, but I would have been bl**dy extatic to fly ME's or Rotary in the airforce. Unless something drastic has changed, C-130's haven't had the Martin Baker treatment.
If the airforce really is THAT short of pilots, surely this rule that everyone has to go to basic training with the potential to be a Tornado or Harrier driver must be changed.
As it is i'm now training for my commercial licences but having spent 15 years wanting to join and then the best part of 4-5 years preparing and planning to join, and having passed the aptitude and medical etc., only to be turned away for some daft rule is quite frustrating. As far as i'm aware, recruitment to the USAF is done by applying to fly a particular aircraft, therefore, bypassing this problem. Maybe it's time the MOD and RAF learnt a lesson and stopped making out that no one wants to join the services!!
Just interested to know what others think of this, or indeed people who have had the same experience as me.
Cheers,
bow5
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Bow5,
I cannot say why or what the knee to ankle measurements for RAF are, but I can tell you that the USAF does not recruit for a particular airframe. They train just like anyone else and stream off for different airframes during flight training.
The only way you might know your future airframe type is if you apply for the Air National Guard in any particular state. Then through flight training you know what you will fly.
I also suspect that the "trainees" from RNZAF had passed wing standard and were awaiting conversion training.
Cheers
I cannot say why or what the knee to ankle measurements for RAF are, but I can tell you that the USAF does not recruit for a particular airframe. They train just like anyone else and stream off for different airframes during flight training.
The only way you might know your future airframe type is if you apply for the Air National Guard in any particular state. Then through flight training you know what you will fly.
I also suspect that the "trainees" from RNZAF had passed wing standard and were awaiting conversion training.
Cheers
Last edited by saudipc-9; 8th Nov 2002 at 18:22.
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There is nothing wrong with short pilots, as far as I know every one in the RAF is commissioned as a potential FJ wannabe, however not every one can make it. I have heard that to wear military pilots wings you have to be in the top 5% of your generation
Norwegians? I don't think so!
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European Crash, I did mean RNZAF pilots. 
Sorry.
I think the point I was trying to make has been missed somewhat.
Like I said, there is nothing wrong with the RAF taking on pilots from New Zealand, or anywhere else for that matter, as long as they fit the nationality requirements that are set out. Indeed, if the RAF hadn't done that in the past the Battle of Britain could have been a whole different story.
What I was trying to say was that as a civvie who has been to OASC and wanted to join the RAF as a pilot, to be turned away as a potential General Duties Officer because the Tucano has a small cockpit was frustrating. To then keep reading that the RAF are short of pilots is quite annoying, to say the least.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but if the RAF are THAT short of pilots surely it's time to re-address the selection criteria. On my OASC board there were 30-35 people, nearly all of whom had put down pilot as their first or only choice. Of those 30-35, only 1 or 2 went through to part two as a pilot candidate, that's despite some more of us having passed both the medical and the aptitude tests.
Just because I am too tall for the ejection seat of a Tucano doesn't make me any better or worse a pilot candidate than someone who fits the Fast Jet measurement criteria. If the RAF are short of pilots, this argument that they can afford to be choosy and stick with this selection criteria holds no water. I'm not for one moment suggesting the RAF lowers their standards
but as I see it, OASC is not necessarily picking the best pilot candidates but the people who are best suited to flying Fast Jets.
Finally, European Crash said:
Who is to say that if these pilots had gone to OASC like the rest of us they would have got through?
p.s. I guess this will all be academic in the next few years as UAV's come into serivce and we have a load of PC playing computer types fighting wars for us
Take it easy,
bow5.
Sorry.I think the point I was trying to make has been missed somewhat.
Like I said, there is nothing wrong with the RAF taking on pilots from New Zealand, or anywhere else for that matter, as long as they fit the nationality requirements that are set out. Indeed, if the RAF hadn't done that in the past the Battle of Britain could have been a whole different story.
What I was trying to say was that as a civvie who has been to OASC and wanted to join the RAF as a pilot, to be turned away as a potential General Duties Officer because the Tucano has a small cockpit was frustrating. To then keep reading that the RAF are short of pilots is quite annoying, to say the least.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but if the RAF are THAT short of pilots surely it's time to re-address the selection criteria. On my OASC board there were 30-35 people, nearly all of whom had put down pilot as their first or only choice. Of those 30-35, only 1 or 2 went through to part two as a pilot candidate, that's despite some more of us having passed both the medical and the aptitude tests.
Just because I am too tall for the ejection seat of a Tucano doesn't make me any better or worse a pilot candidate than someone who fits the Fast Jet measurement criteria. If the RAF are short of pilots, this argument that they can afford to be choosy and stick with this selection criteria holds no water. I'm not for one moment suggesting the RAF lowers their standards
but as I see it, OASC is not necessarily picking the best pilot candidates but the people who are best suited to flying Fast Jets.
Finally, European Crash said:
The 'trainees' were in last stages of FJ training (Aeromacchi 339C) and were a good buy for the RAF.
p.s. I guess this will all be academic in the next few years as UAV's come into serivce and we have a load of PC playing computer types fighting wars for us
Take it easy,
bow5.
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bow5, you are obviously pretty annoyed about being turned down, cant say that i blame you. however, the raf is a fj orientated force, especially now with the shortages. they dont need guys to come in specifically as me or chopper pilots as, especially on the me side, they have enough because guys are staying in. also re the rnzaf guys. they were all commissioned officers, most were experienced fj types, the others were in fj training. please dont make comments questioning their ability to pass oasc here or carry out the duties of a military pilot, tad bit insulting to them.
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Juliet,
I certainly didn't mean to insult anyone. I think you'd have to very thin skinned to be insulted by that anyway!!
Like I said in the original post, I pretty much knew I would be turned down for Pilot, so it wasn't that huge a shock nor does it bother me much now, at 23 i'm too old for the RAF anyway and looking forward to an airline career.
What I am trying to get across is that if the RAF has a pilot shortage, as we 'civvies' keep reading, then poaching pilots from other airforces is surely only a stop gap measure. In the long term, maybe something more fundamental needs to change, either with recruitment, retention or both.
Again, this is academic if the shortage is primarily Fast Jet drivers and not across all airframes.
Cheers,
bow5
I certainly didn't mean to insult anyone. I think you'd have to very thin skinned to be insulted by that anyway!!
Like I said in the original post, I pretty much knew I would be turned down for Pilot, so it wasn't that huge a shock nor does it bother me much now, at 23 i'm too old for the RAF anyway and looking forward to an airline career.
What I am trying to get across is that if the RAF has a pilot shortage, as we 'civvies' keep reading, then poaching pilots from other airforces is surely only a stop gap measure. In the long term, maybe something more fundamental needs to change, either with recruitment, retention or both.
Again, this is academic if the shortage is primarily Fast Jet drivers and not across all airframes.
Cheers,
bow5
bow5
It is my understanding (although I stand ready to be corrected) that the RAF currently has a surplus of Multi Engined pilots, possibly as a result of the downturn in the airline market post Sep 11th, but is short of FJ pilots (and incidentally even shorter of FJ navs!). Obviously this could all change quite quickly. The shortage is a result of problems with retention, which they have just attempted to overcome by financial incentives to serving members to stay in, and the fact that the training system has been so shrunken in recent years that it cannot significantly increase output numbers to compensate for the loss rate. The powers that be say that recruitment is not a problem!!!
If it is any consolation the RAF has always wasted talent. Going back quite a few years there was a time when the RAF had enough Multi Engine/Helo pilots, and if you failed fast jets you became a civilian!! There was a pilot "chopped" on the last stages of the Jag OCU who became a "Mr" shortly thereafter. He must have had considerable talent to be streamed FJ, and get as far as the Jag OCU, and the RAF had invested a lot of time and money in him, but it came down to a numbers game. So he was out!!
I am not in the training system, just on the coal face. This is my understanding of how it is, but as I said earlier I stand ready to be corrected by the more well informed out there!
Best of luck for the future bow5.
It is my understanding (although I stand ready to be corrected) that the RAF currently has a surplus of Multi Engined pilots, possibly as a result of the downturn in the airline market post Sep 11th, but is short of FJ pilots (and incidentally even shorter of FJ navs!). Obviously this could all change quite quickly. The shortage is a result of problems with retention, which they have just attempted to overcome by financial incentives to serving members to stay in, and the fact that the training system has been so shrunken in recent years that it cannot significantly increase output numbers to compensate for the loss rate. The powers that be say that recruitment is not a problem!!!
If it is any consolation the RAF has always wasted talent. Going back quite a few years there was a time when the RAF had enough Multi Engine/Helo pilots, and if you failed fast jets you became a civilian!! There was a pilot "chopped" on the last stages of the Jag OCU who became a "Mr" shortly thereafter. He must have had considerable talent to be streamed FJ, and get as far as the Jag OCU, and the RAF had invested a lot of time and money in him, but it came down to a numbers game. So he was out!!
I am not in the training system, just on the coal face. This is my understanding of how it is, but as I said earlier I stand ready to be corrected by the more well informed out there!
Best of luck for the future bow5.
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bow5,
I feel for you. However, all pilots in the RAF go thru training on the Tucano and then are streamed off at different stages. How would the RAF train you if you don't fit in the Tucano?
I feel for you. However, all pilots in the RAF go thru training on the Tucano and then are streamed off at different stages. How would the RAF train you if you don't fit in the Tucano?
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saudipc-9
The RAF training system has changed a little in the last few years. Only those streamed FJ (at JEFTS or UAS) now fly the Tucano. So bow5's premise that he could avoid the Tucano if he were selected as an ME/RW pilot only is valid, and to be fair the first tranche of female pilots were selected on that basis, so there is a precedent.
However, my understanding accords with Biggus. The RAF is short of pilots due to problems with retention and training, recruitment has never been a problem, and the OASC can afford to be very choosy.
bow5 you have my sympathies, best of luck with a career in civilian aviation.
The RAF training system has changed a little in the last few years. Only those streamed FJ (at JEFTS or UAS) now fly the Tucano. So bow5's premise that he could avoid the Tucano if he were selected as an ME/RW pilot only is valid, and to be fair the first tranche of female pilots were selected on that basis, so there is a precedent.
However, my understanding accords with Biggus. The RAF is short of pilots due to problems with retention and training, recruitment has never been a problem, and the OASC can afford to be very choosy.
bow5 you have my sympathies, best of luck with a career in civilian aviation.
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Bow5, I do understand where you're coming from!! I'm 6'3" and whilst I'm not sure, I've pretty much resigned to myself to the fact that I'm never going to fly FJ's. At least not in the military sense! 
If it's not the length of my spine it could be the length of my thighs, and if it's not them - then it will be the knee to ankle measurement! Either way I'm damned! Oh well.
Good news is that the civil world is increasingly offering some fantastic flying opportunities. Bad news is - you have to foot the bill !!
Unfortunately (for us) OASC can afford to pick and choose, as was said. I would also imagine that a shortage would be far better than trying to find the "extra" trying to train people that simply aren't up to the job and eventually may not make the grade.
Just to confirm my situation, I don't suppose anyone knows the critical "limb length" measurement values that the OASC checks do they? (just thought I'd slip that one in - and no jokes please! )
... potters off to dream about flying the Yak-52 !! lol
If it's not the length of my spine it could be the length of my thighs, and if it's not them - then it will be the knee to ankle measurement! Either way I'm damned! Oh well. Good news is that the civil world is increasingly offering some fantastic flying opportunities. Bad news is - you have to foot the bill !!
Unfortunately (for us) OASC can afford to pick and choose, as was said. I would also imagine that a shortage would be far better than trying to find the "extra" trying to train people that simply aren't up to the job and eventually may not make the grade.
Just to confirm my situation, I don't suppose anyone knows the critical "limb length" measurement values that the OASC checks do they? (just thought I'd slip that one in - and no jokes please!
)... potters off to dream about flying the Yak-52 !! lol
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Hertz,
How many hours are people flying before streaming? I heard this one tossed about in Canada too. They thought that after 25 or so hours in a Slingsby they could predict who was FJ, who was Multi and who was Helo. Never happened because that it is absolute rubbish. However, that is another story.
How many hours are people flying before streaming? I heard this one tossed about in Canada too. They thought that after 25 or so hours in a Slingsby they could predict who was FJ, who was Multi and who was Helo. Never happened because that it is absolute rubbish. However, that is another story.
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The RAF may be short of pilots but the problem is retention of trained pilots not the recruitment. The RAF can afford to be very selective as there are far more applicants for pilot than there are slots. The problem is keeping those pilots in once they have been trained and have gained valuable experience.
Recruiting ready trained mil pilots with that valuable experience is a very effective way of recruiting.
Recruiting ready trained mil pilots with that valuable experience is a very effective way of recruiting.
The pilot shortage often quoted is indeed referring to FJ front line. The problem facing the RAF is two-fold with regard to this problem - first we can't keep enough guys and girls in 'cos they're being given too much tasking; second the training system can't replace those leaving quickly enough.
Passing more recruits through OASC won't create gaps in the training world for the extra pilots that are needed. Recruiting ready-trained guys bypasses that particular problem.
Sorry about the frustration - it wouldn't have got any less had you made it in
Passing more recruits through OASC won't create gaps in the training world for the extra pilots that are needed. Recruiting ready-trained guys bypasses that particular problem.
Sorry about the frustration - it wouldn't have got any less had you made it in
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Saudipc-9
It's been a while since I was a QFI (Tucano) and I don't know the current number of hours (though I'm sure someone will be along in a minute who does). I've never understood how streaming at UAS can be fair. Surely those with more demanding degrees or who have further to travel are disadvantaged? But this is another story, you are right.
It's been a while since I was a QFI (Tucano) and I don't know the current number of hours (though I'm sure someone will be along in a minute who does). I've never understood how streaming at UAS can be fair. Surely those with more demanding degrees or who have further to travel are disadvantaged? But this is another story, you are right.
Couldn't agree more, Hertz van R! Which is why I cannot recommend that anyone who wants both a half-decent degree and to be selected for FJ training should bother with joining a UAS.
How anyone could cope with something like Aero Eng at Impossible College plus regular trips up to Cambridgeshire to fly the rented Tupperware Trainer as well as trying to cover the increased cost of living/working at University, I cannot imagine.
But 30 years ago, such youngsters would A. Probably be RAF Acting Pilot Officers receiving 2 x the usual Local Authority Grant, B. Their degree course came first and foremost, C. The aerodrome from which they flew was closer and in any case, the UAS course only led to a Preliminary Flying Badge which reduced their JP wings course from 140 to 125 hours........ Hence they were paid better, were allowed to get on with their degrees, weren't assessed at UAS but only after they'd finished Officer Training and were on a Wings course on a proper military jet trainer.
How anyone could cope with something like Aero Eng at Impossible College plus regular trips up to Cambridgeshire to fly the rented Tupperware Trainer as well as trying to cover the increased cost of living/working at University, I cannot imagine.
But 30 years ago, such youngsters would A. Probably be RAF Acting Pilot Officers receiving 2 x the usual Local Authority Grant, B. Their degree course came first and foremost, C. The aerodrome from which they flew was closer and in any case, the UAS course only led to a Preliminary Flying Badge which reduced their JP wings course from 140 to 125 hours........ Hence they were paid better, were allowed to get on with their degrees, weren't assessed at UAS but only after they'd finished Officer Training and were on a Wings course on a proper military jet trainer.
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As this thread has developed it's begun to dawn on me that what the media keep referring to as a 'pilot shortage' is indeed a Fast Jet pilot shortage. Not being part of the 'system' anymore means I/we have to rely on media reporting.
Hopefully the retention problem will get sorted. The last thing we need as a country is to give the government the excuse to downsize the military yet further. I can almost hear Brown saying it now: "If we can't find the pilots we may as well get rid of the aircraft. Schools and Hospitals don't you know".
Lastly, if any of you chaps (and chapesses) have to go and deal with kebab eating madman, best of luck. We'll be rooting for you.
Cheers.
bow5
chromate,
These were the measurments for Pilot when I went to OASC in 2000,
Functional Reach (mm): 740-900
Sitting Height (mm): 865-1010
Buttock - Knee (mm): 560-660
Buttock - Heel (mm): 1000-1200
Weight (kgs): 56.8 - 94.0
Navigator was:
Functional Reach (mm): 715-900
Sitting Height (mm): 850-1020
Buttock - Knee (mm): 550-660
Buttock - Heel (mm): 970-1200
Weight (kgs): 56.8-94.0
At 6'3 you may be in with a shout. Best of British!!
Hopefully the retention problem will get sorted. The last thing we need as a country is to give the government the excuse to downsize the military yet further. I can almost hear Brown saying it now: "If we can't find the pilots we may as well get rid of the aircraft. Schools and Hospitals don't you know".
Lastly, if any of you chaps (and chapesses) have to go and deal with kebab eating madman, best of luck. We'll be rooting for you.
Cheers.
bow5
chromate,
These were the measurments for Pilot when I went to OASC in 2000,
Functional Reach (mm): 740-900
Sitting Height (mm): 865-1010
Buttock - Knee (mm): 560-660
Buttock - Heel (mm): 1000-1200
Weight (kgs): 56.8 - 94.0
Navigator was:
Functional Reach (mm): 715-900
Sitting Height (mm): 850-1020
Buttock - Knee (mm): 550-660
Buttock - Heel (mm): 970-1200
Weight (kgs): 56.8-94.0
At 6'3 you may be in with a shout. Best of British!!
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nasty measurements (or not)
Thanks for taking the time to post that info bow5. It appears that I fit everything, but I'm right on the limit with the buttock to knee bit (if I've measured it right ). I'm quite surprised.
Thanks for taking the time to post the figures anyway. Who knows, you may well have even changed my life in a big way doing so!!
(Sorry for being slightly off topic everyone! there is a lose thread there though )
). I'm quite surprised.Thanks for taking the time to post the figures anyway. Who knows, you may well have even changed my life in a big way doing so!!
(Sorry for being slightly off topic everyone! there is a lose thread there though
)
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Certainly a very interesting post.
I must also apologise for venturing off topic, but I being worried about measurements also, I was wondering if there is measuring yourself is going to bear any resemblence to the stats you will get at OASC, and also I wondered how strict they are at OASC on this, I mean do they hold your back and shoulders to the wall when measuring functional reach, or can you lean out a tiny bit?
Being a shorty type I'm a little concerened
Many thanks,
Rusty.
I must also apologise for venturing off topic, but I being worried about measurements also, I was wondering if there is measuring yourself is going to bear any resemblence to the stats you will get at OASC, and also I wondered how strict they are at OASC on this, I mean do they hold your back and shoulders to the wall when measuring functional reach, or can you lean out a tiny bit?
Being a shorty type I'm a little concerened
Many thanks,
Rusty.
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The figures I saw last, admittedly about 8 months ago, showed that we were short of pilots across the board with a prediction to remain so over the next 3 years. Fast Jets slightly worse off, predicted to become significantly so. A little short on AeOps and a surplus of ALMs. (Sorry Engs, cant remember, but you are a rare breed for sure). We had a significant surplus of Navs across the board. As suspected its because they all stay in and get promoted as there is a large shortage of JO FJ Navs. Stop promoting the ******s I say!