UK Firemen's Strike
Strikes
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The last firemans NATIONAL strike was at Christmas as well. I remember being SDO on Christmas Day 1978 and taking a case of beer to the Fire Section at Northolt who were on duty as the Specialist Fire Team for North London.
I say NATIONAL strike because since we bought a cottage in NE Essex 6 years ago there has only been ONE YEAR where the local fire service has not gone on strike. Each time the local garrison has had to provide cover with the Green Godesses.
Incidentally, the pay structure the Firemen now complain so vociferously about is the structure they went on strike to obtain in 1978!!!
I say NATIONAL strike because since we bought a cottage in NE Essex 6 years ago there has only been ONE YEAR where the local fire service has not gone on strike. Each time the local garrison has had to provide cover with the Green Godesses.
Incidentally, the pay structure the Firemen now complain so vociferously about is the structure they went on strike to obtain in 1978!!!
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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This maybe a silly question...
What happens to the Green Godesses between fire strikes? Are they on active service at miltary bases or just mothballed?
If they ARE in service is their use during the strike not degrading military fire cover? Also if they are so incapable and poorly equipped for fire fighting should be be using them to protect our forces?
What happens to the Green Godesses between fire strikes? Are they on active service at miltary bases or just mothballed?
If they ARE in service is their use during the strike not degrading military fire cover? Also if they are so incapable and poorly equipped for fire fighting should be be using them to protect our forces?
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Green Godess: please refer to my earlier post on this thread, 22nd Oct, posted before the the Guardian!
These vehicles are owned by whichever Govt. Dept that runs Civil Defence.
They are not used, ever, other than for situations such as this.
Servicemen will not be allowed access to normal front-line vehicles, or any of the equipment they carry, because B. Liar is cosy with the Unions and will not allow picket lines to be crossed.
RAF Crash/Fire vehicles are not suitable for domestic fire-fighting, though no doubt the airmen manning them would make do.
In 1997 there were 236,000 days lost to strike action. So far in 2002 there have been 800,000 !
These vehicles are owned by whichever Govt. Dept that runs Civil Defence.
They are not used, ever, other than for situations such as this.
Servicemen will not be allowed access to normal front-line vehicles, or any of the equipment they carry, because B. Liar is cosy with the Unions and will not allow picket lines to be crossed.
RAF Crash/Fire vehicles are not suitable for domestic fire-fighting, though no doubt the airmen manning them would make do.
In 1997 there were 236,000 days lost to strike action. So far in 2002 there have been 800,000 !
In 1978 I manned a Green Goddess for 2 weeks. The firemen were striking for a wage equivalent to my then corporals pay. Now they want to strike for a wage equivalent to a basic HEMS pilots pay!
Either I am working for the wrong company or the firemen are asking for too much!
Or both!
Either I am working for the wrong company or the firemen are asking for too much!
Or both!
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Just a thought, but maybe we should look at training the troops in driving civilian fire engines.
That way, when the firefighters go on strike next time, we could safely use Mr and Mrs Taxpayers fire engines and the GGs could go in a museum.
And while we are at it, the guys could learn how to drive an ambulance, because if the firemen get 16%, the paramedics will be out too!
How many Seasons of Discontent lie ahead of us?
That way, when the firefighters go on strike next time, we could safely use Mr and Mrs Taxpayers fire engines and the GGs could go in a museum.
And while we are at it, the guys could learn how to drive an ambulance, because if the firemen get 16%, the paramedics will be out too!
How many Seasons of Discontent lie ahead of us?
You're quite right about the use of civilian fire engines and equipment being prevented by the Govt's unwillingness for troops to cross picket lines, although this is not the 'official reason'.
Instead, it is deemed that modern fire engines would require too much training for mere squaddies to be able to use.
Speaking to a fire service source, I'm told that modern engines are generally much easier to use than Green Goddesses, and that apart from some highly specialised kit (unavailable on the Goddess, and with no equivalent), soldiers would have no problems operating them. His thought was that a military crewed modern appliance would have about 70% of the effectiveness of a civilian-crewed one, eg about four times the effectiveness of a Goddess. Even if a modern engine only used its superior speed, higher water pressure and longer ladders, (none of which impose a greater training burden than that required for the GG) they would mark a significant improvement.
He pointed out that use of the longer ladders available on modern engines, breathing apparatus, cutting gear and flame-retardant clothing required little or no training, and that cutting troops off from this kit was irresponsible to them and to the public, since it degraded their effectiveness and reduced their personal safety without any good cause.
The consequences of a fire service strike will include unnecessary and unavoidable deaths. Let's not exacerbate this by artificially constraining the effectiveness of the interim solution, especially not for mere political expediency.
Instead, it is deemed that modern fire engines would require too much training for mere squaddies to be able to use.
Speaking to a fire service source, I'm told that modern engines are generally much easier to use than Green Goddesses, and that apart from some highly specialised kit (unavailable on the Goddess, and with no equivalent), soldiers would have no problems operating them. His thought was that a military crewed modern appliance would have about 70% of the effectiveness of a civilian-crewed one, eg about four times the effectiveness of a Goddess. Even if a modern engine only used its superior speed, higher water pressure and longer ladders, (none of which impose a greater training burden than that required for the GG) they would mark a significant improvement.
He pointed out that use of the longer ladders available on modern engines, breathing apparatus, cutting gear and flame-retardant clothing required little or no training, and that cutting troops off from this kit was irresponsible to them and to the public, since it degraded their effectiveness and reduced their personal safety without any good cause.
The consequences of a fire service strike will include unnecessary and unavoidable deaths. Let's not exacerbate this by artificially constraining the effectiveness of the interim solution, especially not for mere political expediency.
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Just a thought, but isn't this an Aircrew Forum, not a Forces general chat forum? I don't see many Forces Aircrew getting involved in this one, so why not take your opinions to a forum where they would be heard?
In response to the replies below, I take it back! It wasn't an 'angry' go elsewhere anyway. More of a quizzical, "If you feel strongly, take it somewhere it will do some good, ie through your MP, etc."
I am surprised that the Forces are using op aircrew for this purpose, and hope that being OOA at the moment will let me off the call-up!! However, I do think the firemen are worth every penny of what they are asking for, if it means they run into a burning building to drag my family out in the middle of the night.
In response to the replies below, I take it back! It wasn't an 'angry' go elsewhere anyway. More of a quizzical, "If you feel strongly, take it somewhere it will do some good, ie through your MP, etc."
I am surprised that the Forces are using op aircrew for this purpose, and hope that being OOA at the moment will let me off the call-up!! However, I do think the firemen are worth every penny of what they are asking for, if it means they run into a burning building to drag my family out in the middle of the night.
Calm down old son! PPRuNe often includes threads that aren't strictly relevant to the forum title - from procurement decisions that are way above current aircrew's pay grade to political and geo-political stuff.
I think this thread started 'cos some holding aircrew had been posted to the operation (a new Deny Christmas?) anyway.
And as a self-confessed navigator
, you could be asked what you're doing on a Pilot's Rumour Network anyway! 
I may be a journo, and I may not be remotely professional, but I am at least a stick-monkey, before you point out my own admittedly rather tenuous right to be here!
I think this thread started 'cos some holding aircrew had been posted to the operation (a new Deny Christmas?) anyway.
And as a self-confessed navigator
, you could be asked what you're doing on a Pilot's Rumour Network anyway! I may be a journo, and I may not be remotely professional, but I am at least a stick-monkey, before you point out my own admittedly rather tenuous right to be here!
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uk Firemans Strike
MaddogsTwo
"I don't see many forces aircrew getting involved in this one"
Well get your facts right before you hark on. There is at least one fully operational Nimrod crew from ICK involved in Op Fresco.
And they say that we're not overstretched. B@ll@cks!
Sorry for the rant chaps.
"I don't see many forces aircrew getting involved in this one"
Well get your facts right before you hark on. There is at least one fully operational Nimrod crew from ICK involved in Op Fresco.
And they say that we're not overstretched. B@ll@cks!
Sorry for the rant chaps.
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Hey Maddogstwo - I'm aircrew and I know of at least one other from my station who is on fiasco with me so wind yer neck in!
This is one of the times when I think it might be very productive for the press to use this entire thread! Any of you wizz kids able to email the thread to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister?
I think most of it has been said above - how pathetic that some people are trying to instigate secondary action under cover of the health and safety issue. As far as I can see firemen work very few hours ( relatively ) and most of that time is spent playing pool or shopping for ingredients for a good curry!!
BUT ABSOLUTE SHAME ON THEM - STRIKING UP TO XMAS EVE WHEN OUR FORCES PERSONNEL ARE TRYING TO GET HOME TO LOVED ONES!!! AND THATS AFTER WHAT HAS BEEN A BUSY AND TESTING YEAR FOR HM FORCES! THIS IS THE STRAW THAT HAS BROKEN MY BACK - NO SYMPATHY FROM ME ! SHAME SHAME SHAME ON THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is one of the times when I think it might be very productive for the press to use this entire thread! Any of you wizz kids able to email the thread to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister?
I think most of it has been said above - how pathetic that some people are trying to instigate secondary action under cover of the health and safety issue. As far as I can see firemen work very few hours ( relatively ) and most of that time is spent playing pool or shopping for ingredients for a good curry!!
BUT ABSOLUTE SHAME ON THEM - STRIKING UP TO XMAS EVE WHEN OUR FORCES PERSONNEL ARE TRYING TO GET HOME TO LOVED ONES!!! AND THATS AFTER WHAT HAS BEEN A BUSY AND TESTING YEAR FOR HM FORCES! THIS IS THE STRAW THAT HAS BROKEN MY BACK - NO SYMPATHY FROM ME ! SHAME SHAME SHAME ON THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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If you believe The Sunday Times, the threatened firefighters' strike is very pertinent to aircrew.
Article in full:
RAF squadrons grounded by firemen’s strike threat
Eben Black, Chief Political Correspondent
BRITAIN’S frontline RAF squadrons will be out of action this week because the government is stripping them of staff to prepare for the eight-day strike firefighters have threatened from Wednesday.
Ministers have confirmed that RAF personnel from 37 squadrons have been switched to emergency fire duties.
Two of the squadrons are understood to be central to Britain’s 24-hour air defences and another two are Tornado strike squadrons.
The effects of the strike will be felt for much longer than eight days because of the complexity of training military staff and moving them and their vehicles around the country.
The revelations about the RAF follow similar warnings about the Royal Navy, a third of which is already out of action after staff were ordered to prepare for emergency fire duties.
The dispute follows the firefighters’ demand for a 40% pay increase, which would take their average salary to £30,000.
Talks between the firefighters’ union and their local government employers broke up last week with no settlement.
The search for a deal has been complicated by union claims that the employers were willing to offer 16% — but were ordered not to do so by the government, which feared spiralling pay claims from other public sector employees. The employers’ current offer is worth about 4%, say negotiators.
Two planned 48-hour strikes have already been averted after interventions from John Prescott, the deputy prime minister. However, Wednesday’s walkout looks likely to go ahead. Andy Gilchrist, the Fire Brigades Union leader, has refused to back down over the claim.
The government has traditionally turned to the armed forces during strikes by firemen. All three forces train personnel in firefighting and maintain their own fleets of fire vehicles.
In 1978, 4,000 personnel from the navy and the Royal Marines were deployed with “Green Goddess” emergency vehicles across Britain.
However, there are serious concerns over the quality of cover that RAF and naval fire crews will be able to provide. The services have only 827 Green Goddesses, compared with 3,000 civilian fire engines.
Many of the military vehicles are old — some dating back to the 1950s — and many have a maximum speed of just 35mph. They also need a police escort because they have no radios.
With so many staff on civilian fire duty, the RAF and navy will have to suspend operations that might lead to fires — including many defensive patrols and training flights.
Prescott’s efforts have now been blocked by Gordon Brown, the chancellor, who is understood to have balked at allowing the firefighters a rise of anywhere near 16%, let alone the 40% demanded.
His fears that a high settlement would open the floodgates to other pay demands are shared by Tony Blair and by many in business and industry.
In an interview to be broadcast today, Digby Jones, the director-general of the CBI, urges the government to “stand firm” against rising militancy in the public sector.
Speaking on the BBC’s On the Record, he will say: “Our message to this Labour government is they must stand firm at this very crucial moment for the British economy and for the future of the country.”
This weekend Gilchrist was still in discussions with his members but this week’s strike now seems likely.
Article in full:
RAF squadrons grounded by firemen’s strike threat
Eben Black, Chief Political Correspondent
BRITAIN’S frontline RAF squadrons will be out of action this week because the government is stripping them of staff to prepare for the eight-day strike firefighters have threatened from Wednesday.
Ministers have confirmed that RAF personnel from 37 squadrons have been switched to emergency fire duties.
Two of the squadrons are understood to be central to Britain’s 24-hour air defences and another two are Tornado strike squadrons.
The effects of the strike will be felt for much longer than eight days because of the complexity of training military staff and moving them and their vehicles around the country.
The revelations about the RAF follow similar warnings about the Royal Navy, a third of which is already out of action after staff were ordered to prepare for emergency fire duties.
The dispute follows the firefighters’ demand for a 40% pay increase, which would take their average salary to £30,000.
Talks between the firefighters’ union and their local government employers broke up last week with no settlement.
The search for a deal has been complicated by union claims that the employers were willing to offer 16% — but were ordered not to do so by the government, which feared spiralling pay claims from other public sector employees. The employers’ current offer is worth about 4%, say negotiators.
Two planned 48-hour strikes have already been averted after interventions from John Prescott, the deputy prime minister. However, Wednesday’s walkout looks likely to go ahead. Andy Gilchrist, the Fire Brigades Union leader, has refused to back down over the claim.
The government has traditionally turned to the armed forces during strikes by firemen. All three forces train personnel in firefighting and maintain their own fleets of fire vehicles.
In 1978, 4,000 personnel from the navy and the Royal Marines were deployed with “Green Goddess” emergency vehicles across Britain.
However, there are serious concerns over the quality of cover that RAF and naval fire crews will be able to provide. The services have only 827 Green Goddesses, compared with 3,000 civilian fire engines.
Many of the military vehicles are old — some dating back to the 1950s — and many have a maximum speed of just 35mph. They also need a police escort because they have no radios.
With so many staff on civilian fire duty, the RAF and navy will have to suspend operations that might lead to fires — including many defensive patrols and training flights.
Prescott’s efforts have now been blocked by Gordon Brown, the chancellor, who is understood to have balked at allowing the firefighters a rise of anywhere near 16%, let alone the 40% demanded.
His fears that a high settlement would open the floodgates to other pay demands are shared by Tony Blair and by many in business and industry.
In an interview to be broadcast today, Digby Jones, the director-general of the CBI, urges the government to “stand firm” against rising militancy in the public sector.
Speaking on the BBC’s On the Record, he will say: “Our message to this Labour government is they must stand firm at this very crucial moment for the British economy and for the future of the country.”
This weekend Gilchrist was still in discussions with his members but this week’s strike now seems likely.
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i was suprised when i saw a loady in the raf news doing fire training. what next for aircrew, guard duty? but on a serious note it does show how overstretched the forces are. but i wonder how many people from strike and ptc( does that stand for pressed trousers?) hq's are on op fresco? and a final point since when has the tornado been a strike aircraft, i thought the 177 was no more?
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Just a thought....aren't we all supposed to be in this together, irrespective of branch or trade. Isn't the raison d'etre of the Royal Air Force to generate air power? And every person in the RAF is part of that equation. It is about achieving the aim, not that I am aircrew/armourer/air traffic/chef/supplier/admin/poiliceman/etc etc etc. And if we are not generating airpower, shouldn't we all pull together to do the job we are given?
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QPQ
I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, some people (and you get them in every branch and trade) become too blinkered by their own pride and ego to see the big picture.
If the RAF and everyone in it disappeared tomorrow, the world wouldn't stop turning.
I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, some people (and you get them in every branch and trade) become too blinkered by their own pride and ego to see the big picture.
If the RAF and everyone in it disappeared tomorrow, the world wouldn't stop turning.
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QPQ,
I also agree, but the problem here is that we, the RAF, haven't all been given ONE job - we still have to do our jobs whilst giving up ridiculous %ages of our number to ANOTHER task.....the result is not a pulling together, but a pulling apart. I'm in no doubt that the chaps and chapesses involved in Fiasco will give it their all, but B.Liar and Co. should have ever put them in this position.
Is it not that this whole thing has been caused by the spiralling cost of living in certain areas? Whilst we in the Forces have the supposed benefit of living in service accn, the brave men of the Fire (+ police, nursing, medics etc) service have to live in the communities in which they work.....this is the real reason why they could use the extra cash. If the firemen pull this off it will surely start an avalanche of public sector strikes to pull wages in line.......God help us all!
Still, at least the sky's still blue.....Doh!
UG
I also agree, but the problem here is that we, the RAF, haven't all been given ONE job - we still have to do our jobs whilst giving up ridiculous %ages of our number to ANOTHER task.....the result is not a pulling together, but a pulling apart. I'm in no doubt that the chaps and chapesses involved in Fiasco will give it their all, but B.Liar and Co. should have ever put them in this position.
Is it not that this whole thing has been caused by the spiralling cost of living in certain areas? Whilst we in the Forces have the supposed benefit of living in service accn, the brave men of the Fire (+ police, nursing, medics etc) service have to live in the communities in which they work.....this is the real reason why they could use the extra cash. If the firemen pull this off it will surely start an avalanche of public sector strikes to pull wages in line.......God help us all!
Still, at least the sky's still blue.....Doh!
UG
