RAF Fitness Test
Mr BEagle Sir,
Mr Monkey is absolutely correct in assuming that I do not cherish the thought of a "night off". Each of us has a calling in life and mine is to be of service to Mr Monkey. To that end I have gratefully accepted his invitation to join him in the rear drawing room for a whisky later tonight. Therein no doubt, we will recall old memories of some of our earlier days such as the time at Eton when I was first used as a toast rack. Happy days for all.
I beg your leave now as i have domiciliary duties to perfom.
I have Sir, the honour to be your obediant servant.
Caruthers the Man.
Mr Monkey is absolutely correct in assuming that I do not cherish the thought of a "night off". Each of us has a calling in life and mine is to be of service to Mr Monkey. To that end I have gratefully accepted his invitation to join him in the rear drawing room for a whisky later tonight. Therein no doubt, we will recall old memories of some of our earlier days such as the time at Eton when I was first used as a toast rack. Happy days for all.
I beg your leave now as i have domiciliary duties to perfom.
I have Sir, the honour to be your obediant servant.
Caruthers the Man.
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I'm a bit confused by all this discussion.
If you are physically fit, you will be just plain better at your job. You suffer less fatigue. You get ill less. You can concentrate longer. All Fact.
My own experience is that all the Aircrew I saw perform badly in R to I training, were generally unfit, and had little physical confidence.
IMO, what we do not test is "balls" or physical courage. I've talked to a number of both RAF and USAF aircrew who think that a good four minutes of in the boxing ring would weed out a lot of folks who shouldn't be in the job. Same for the Army.
Infact across the board, F-105 and F-86 combat veterans I have interviewed, nearly all told me, that "balls is more important than flying ability."
Edited cos of lysdexia...and balls is more important than spelling
If you are physically fit, you will be just plain better at your job. You suffer less fatigue. You get ill less. You can concentrate longer. All Fact.
My own experience is that all the Aircrew I saw perform badly in R to I training, were generally unfit, and had little physical confidence.
IMO, what we do not test is "balls" or physical courage. I've talked to a number of both RAF and USAF aircrew who think that a good four minutes of in the boxing ring would weed out a lot of folks who shouldn't be in the job. Same for the Army.
Infact across the board, F-105 and F-86 combat veterans I have interviewed, nearly all told me, that "balls is more important than flying ability."
Edited cos of lysdexia...and balls is more important than spelling
SM, please inform your gentleman's gentleman that it is not done for the lower orders to attempt to communicate directly with another gentleman; instead such communication should be made with the other gentleman's gentleman. I shall send my man round to remind him of this - perhaps they might spend 4 minutes attempting to inflict brain damage upon each other in the thoroughly unseemly manner so beloved of Low and Slow. Hoo-ah Sir, yes Sir, and all that sort of thing.......
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Low & Slow,
Some interesting, and somewhat silly and confusing comments there old chap
You say 'If you are physically fit, you will be just plain better at your job. You suffer less fatigue. You get ill less. You can concentrate longer. All Fact. All nonesence I would suggest.
I openly admit to you that I am generally unfit, and yes, overweight. But you know nothing about me or many of my colleagues. So how dare you suggest that I am poor at my job, am always ill, fatigued and can't concentrate??
You suggest that the fitter you are, then the better you are at your job? No, sorry, that is just plain stupidity
FACT
You suggest that if you are generally unfit, then you have little confidence and are poor at R to I? No, sorry, but that is REALLY Stupid now! FACT
And let me see now..."balls is more important than flying ability."
I am afraid that you are now talking balls Sir
Nothing whatsoever substitutes flying ability (FACT), and I would defy anyone to argue otherwise. What F105 and F86 Jocks did was there thing, but to say that balls is more important beggars belief.
Does anyone else out there agree with that statement? God I hope not.
If you would like to see me test my Balls (or my courage if you want to call it that) then I will gladly take you out on a cold, dark, wet winters night (sounds like Christmas story line, dosen't it?), over the 'oggin in a force 5 - 6 and then dangle you on 100' of quarter inch cable, and lower you onto a yacht that's pitching 30 - 40' Now that my friend tests your balls 'big time' believe me!!
I have done it, and I've done it on several occasions. Never once did I wimp out 'cos I was fatigued (although at 3am I probably was!) or decline 'cos I had a cold, or I was unfit to do so, or was unable to concentrate, or indeed not do the job for any of the reasons you suggest is as a result of being unfit.
You are talking utter **** Sir 
Do come and join me, I'de love to test your Balls!!
Caruthers, I'm delighted you will be joining me (and possibly a few others) for drinks tonight
But do take note of the good Officer BEagles comments above. I am even more delighted to see that you are putting to good use, the Christmas gift of a computer I sent to you, well done! Do always remember however, that this is a forum for friendly (ish) banter, and you must not (unlike some of the Army chaps) take it too seriously 
Regards to all
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, 8pm sharp, rear drawing room, glass in hand!!'
Some interesting, and somewhat silly and confusing comments there old chap
You say 'If you are physically fit, you will be just plain better at your job. You suffer less fatigue. You get ill less. You can concentrate longer. All Fact. All nonesence I would suggest.
I openly admit to you that I am generally unfit, and yes, overweight. But you know nothing about me or many of my colleagues. So how dare you suggest that I am poor at my job, am always ill, fatigued and can't concentrate??
You suggest that the fitter you are, then the better you are at your job? No, sorry, that is just plain stupidity
FACT You suggest that if you are generally unfit, then you have little confidence and are poor at R to I? No, sorry, but that is REALLY Stupid now! FACT
And let me see now..."balls is more important than flying ability."
I am afraid that you are now talking balls Sir
Nothing whatsoever substitutes flying ability (FACT), and I would defy anyone to argue otherwise. What F105 and F86 Jocks did was there thing, but to say that balls is more important beggars belief.
Does anyone else out there agree with that statement? God I hope not.
If you would like to see me test my Balls (or my courage if you want to call it that) then I will gladly take you out on a cold, dark, wet winters night (sounds like Christmas story line, dosen't it?), over the 'oggin in a force 5 - 6 and then dangle you on 100' of quarter inch cable, and lower you onto a yacht that's pitching 30 - 40' Now that my friend tests your balls 'big time' believe me!!
I have done it, and I've done it on several occasions. Never once did I wimp out 'cos I was fatigued (although at 3am I probably was!) or decline 'cos I had a cold, or I was unfit to do so, or was unable to concentrate, or indeed not do the job for any of the reasons you suggest is as a result of being unfit.
You are talking utter **** Sir
Do come and join me, I'de love to test your Balls!!Caruthers, I'm delighted you will be joining me (and possibly a few others) for drinks tonight
But do take note of the good Officer BEagles comments above. I am even more delighted to see that you are putting to good use, the Christmas gift of a computer I sent to you, well done! Do always remember however, that this is a forum for friendly (ish) banter, and you must not (unlike some of the Army chaps) take it too seriously Regards to all
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, 8pm sharp, rear drawing room, glass in hand!!'
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Monkey:
I know nothing about you, so stop taking it personally and read what I wrote. Likewise you know nothing about me.
Someone who is physically fit will suffer from fatigue less. That's medical fact. Not opinion.
It is not my opinion that BALLS is better than flying ability. It is the opinion of pilots with vast operational experience. To put in more basic language, a cool head and determination buy you more in combat than the ability to keep the ball in middle. Yes you have to to be able to fly well, but that's a given. You wouldn't be there if you couldn't. Good Combat pilots can't neccesserily fly any more precisely than anyone else. I refer to Johnson, Rahl, Richthoffen, Sparks, Jabarra, and Lowe.
Fitness is only any use if, you have the courage and determination.
Your ability to do your job, is not predicated on any personal skill you have. It's about your determination to get the job done, and save lives. (I assume you're a winchman) and presumably you take great proffessional pride is maintaining the physical strength needed to do your job, or what ever type of fitness is crucial to winchmen.
The point of this thread, was do about RAF fitness. I just assumed that being fit for the job was a point of personal pride, and infact some other things, like courage and determination are vastly more important than being physcially fit.
I know nothing about you, so stop taking it personally and read what I wrote. Likewise you know nothing about me.
Someone who is physically fit will suffer from fatigue less. That's medical fact. Not opinion.
It is not my opinion that BALLS is better than flying ability. It is the opinion of pilots with vast operational experience. To put in more basic language, a cool head and determination buy you more in combat than the ability to keep the ball in middle. Yes you have to to be able to fly well, but that's a given. You wouldn't be there if you couldn't. Good Combat pilots can't neccesserily fly any more precisely than anyone else. I refer to Johnson, Rahl, Richthoffen, Sparks, Jabarra, and Lowe.
Fitness is only any use if, you have the courage and determination.
Your ability to do your job, is not predicated on any personal skill you have. It's about your determination to get the job done, and save lives. (I assume you're a winchman) and presumably you take great proffessional pride is maintaining the physical strength needed to do your job, or what ever type of fitness is crucial to winchmen.
The point of this thread, was do about RAF fitness. I just assumed that being fit for the job was a point of personal pride, and infact some other things, like courage and determination are vastly more important than being physcially fit.
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Low & Slow,
I'm not getting into a slanging match here, but it's a bit late to blame others for YOUR comments.
As for your medical facts, exactly what form of fatigue are you now refering too? not running very fast, jumping, what exactly? I cannot run very fast, or jump very high or far I readily admit, so am I someone who suffers from your fatigue? And what about all that claptrap about being less ill, and being able to concentrate more? Come on L & S are you really being serious here??
If it's not your opinion that balls are more important than flying ability, why did you make reference to it? Presumably you now advocate that a cool head and determination equate to 'balls & courage' eh?
And this business about fitness only being of any use if you have courage and determination? Me thinks you have been at the Famous Grouse too much over the festive period, and it has had a strange pickeling effect upon your brain!!
Listen, you cannot make brash statements and then blame other folk for them. If you agree with the nonesence about 'balls before ability' then either say so, or don't mention it. Patently, you do agree with it, and that concerns me, 'cos me thinks that with your type of attitude, we will be meeting (in a professional capacity anyway) fairly soon!!!
Regards
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, have you been feeding L & S with my Scotch over Christmas?'
I'm not getting into a slanging match here, but it's a bit late to blame others for YOUR comments.
As for your medical facts, exactly what form of fatigue are you now refering too? not running very fast, jumping, what exactly? I cannot run very fast, or jump very high or far I readily admit, so am I someone who suffers from your fatigue? And what about all that claptrap about being less ill, and being able to concentrate more? Come on L & S are you really being serious here??
If it's not your opinion that balls are more important than flying ability, why did you make reference to it? Presumably you now advocate that a cool head and determination equate to 'balls & courage' eh?
And this business about fitness only being of any use if you have courage and determination? Me thinks you have been at the Famous Grouse too much over the festive period, and it has had a strange pickeling effect upon your brain!!
Listen, you cannot make brash statements and then blame other folk for them. If you agree with the nonesence about 'balls before ability' then either say so, or don't mention it. Patently, you do agree with it, and that concerns me, 'cos me thinks that with your type of attitude, we will be meeting (in a professional capacity anyway) fairly soon!!!
Regards
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, have you been feeding L & S with my Scotch over Christmas?'
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Monkey,
I'm not getting into a debate on this either. I'm telling you how the world works, based on 20 years diverse exprience, and having either seen good men prove it failed to cut it myself. Take it or leave it.
I'm not getting into a debate on this either. I'm telling you how the world works, based on 20 years diverse exprience, and having either seen good men prove it failed to cut it myself. Take it or leave it.
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Low & Slow,
Thanks, but after 32 years of extremely diverse service, I'll leave it thanks It's not the way it works in my world! Night Night
Regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, more grouse I think'
Thanks, but after 32 years of extremely diverse service, I'll leave it thanks
It's not the way it works in my world! Night NightRegards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, more grouse I think'
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Sir, shall I escort the "Gentleman" to the door and allow the dogs to have at him?
I have taken on board Mr BEagle's comments and offer my apologies for acting above my station. As you can see Sir, I am getting on quite well with your marvellous Christmas present to me. I have electronically-mailed Mrs Caruthers who is currently scouring the bars of Bang Kok for a long lost cousin.
I shall now depart this forum and continue to prepare your attire for the New Year celebrations. I look forward Sir, to partaking of a seasonal drink with you later this evening.
I have taken on board Mr BEagle's comments and offer my apologies for acting above my station. As you can see Sir, I am getting on quite well with your marvellous Christmas present to me. I have electronically-mailed Mrs Caruthers who is currently scouring the bars of Bang Kok for a long lost cousin.
I shall now depart this forum and continue to prepare your attire for the New Year celebrations. I look forward Sir, to partaking of a seasonal drink with you later this evening.
Riiiighhhhhhhhhhhhhht I benn fer a drink with Sir and he is gud. Some offf yuo lot say stuff that is rude adn rong.
Some of yo uare gennelmen some of y uo arnt yuo shuld be shot.
Godddddd save our gracous Queen
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOoong liv are nobble Queeen
Godd save are Queeeenn
Da da da da ada aadddadaaaa da
seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnndddddd he rvitctorius
Hic Hic
I bid you g'nite gennelmenn
Some of yo uare gennelmen some of y uo arnt yuo shuld be shot.
Godddddd save our gracous Queen
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOoong liv are nobble Queeen
Godd save are Queeeenn
Da da da da ada aadddadaaaa da
seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeennnnnnnnnnndddddd he rvitctorius
Hic Hic
I bid you g'nite gennelmenn
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Just for the record, as it was getting into a personal 1v1,
I'm with swinging monkey. Low and slow, you have written the biggest load of c**p that I've read for ages.
Still nice to know that we can bin the flying training system and just do 4 mins in a boxing ring instead!! Should save plenty of cash.
I'm with swinging monkey. Low and slow, you have written the biggest load of c**p that I've read for ages.
Still nice to know that we can bin the flying training system and just do 4 mins in a boxing ring instead!! Should save plenty of cash.
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I have the soloution to the aircrew shortages!
All the unemployed drop outs in this area go out drinking mosts nights and seem to have plenty of balls at the end of the evening. Many a time are they seen spending a few happy minutes milling with each other. Send these talented youngsters along to the careers office to apply for aircrew right away! They obviously have all it takes - BALLS!!!
Mad Mark!!!
All the unemployed drop outs in this area go out drinking mosts nights and seem to have plenty of balls at the end of the evening. Many a time are they seen spending a few happy minutes milling with each other. Send these talented youngsters along to the careers office to apply for aircrew right away! They obviously have all it takes - BALLS!!!
Mad Mark!!!
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I certainly don't take any of this personally. I like to see more argument, than personal abuse, but I'll lay this out as simply as possible.
1. Having sought out and interviewed, as part of a proffessional study, large amounts of Aircrew, Special Forces and even a WW2 submariner, who have served in Units or sub-units that suffered HIGH OPERATIONAL LOSS, it is THEIR majority opinion, and one I share, that there is quality, defined as either courage or determination, that is CRITICAL to SUSTAINED operational success. This quality cannot be taught, and little effort is put into indentifying it.
(If any of you have operational experience under similar conditions, ( High loss / combat attrition) I'd be very interested in your opinion as well.)
2. If someone has attained the skill to be an operational pilot on a Squadron, his ability to fly is not in doubt. Flying is a skill that can be taught, and RAF flight training successfully identifies those who have a predisposed skill. You cannot teach someone to be brave.
Thus we assume anyone flying in comabt has the requisite aircraft handling skills. Do we also take it for granted, that he has the courage/determination to perform his mission? If so why? Why do skilled pilots fail in combat?
3. Having attended/instructed on, God knows how many R to I exercises, and CAC courses (mainly Aircrew and SF) over 4 years, both before and after Granby and during Grapple, it is my OPINION, that overweight and unfit aircrew, and others, did not perform well under simulated interrogation, and also seemed to carry a disproportinate amount of injury.
4. People who are physically and more importantly, mentally fit, have longer powers of endurance and survive in stressful conditions better, than those who are unfit.
Boxing? Maybe not appropriate for modern aircrew. Any constructive ideas as to how an assessment might be made?
1. Having sought out and interviewed, as part of a proffessional study, large amounts of Aircrew, Special Forces and even a WW2 submariner, who have served in Units or sub-units that suffered HIGH OPERATIONAL LOSS, it is THEIR majority opinion, and one I share, that there is quality, defined as either courage or determination, that is CRITICAL to SUSTAINED operational success. This quality cannot be taught, and little effort is put into indentifying it.
(If any of you have operational experience under similar conditions, ( High loss / combat attrition) I'd be very interested in your opinion as well.)
2. If someone has attained the skill to be an operational pilot on a Squadron, his ability to fly is not in doubt. Flying is a skill that can be taught, and RAF flight training successfully identifies those who have a predisposed skill. You cannot teach someone to be brave.
Thus we assume anyone flying in comabt has the requisite aircraft handling skills. Do we also take it for granted, that he has the courage/determination to perform his mission? If so why? Why do skilled pilots fail in combat?
3. Having attended/instructed on, God knows how many R to I exercises, and CAC courses (mainly Aircrew and SF) over 4 years, both before and after Granby and during Grapple, it is my OPINION, that overweight and unfit aircrew, and others, did not perform well under simulated interrogation, and also seemed to carry a disproportinate amount of injury.
4. People who are physically and more importantly, mentally fit, have longer powers of endurance and survive in stressful conditions better, than those who are unfit.
Boxing? Maybe not appropriate for modern aircrew. Any constructive ideas as to how an assessment might be made?
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Mr Monkey,
Just wanted to offer my thanks to you and all your colleagues on the S&R squadrons…. Balls, or no balls, you boys do a fantastic job.
As for Mr Low and Slow…. Sorry my dear friend, but you are most defiantly wrong… You say the flying is something that can be taught, and I agree with you to a certain level, but not everyone makes the grade… You can have balls the size of water melons but if you’re not up to scratch, then at best you’ll be meeting Mr monkey on of rope somewhere, otherwise, you’ll be meeting no one. Balls are important, ability is vital!
Just wanted to offer my thanks to you and all your colleagues on the S&R squadrons…. Balls, or no balls, you boys do a fantastic job.
As for Mr Low and Slow…. Sorry my dear friend, but you are most defiantly wrong… You say the flying is something that can be taught, and I agree with you to a certain level, but not everyone makes the grade… You can have balls the size of water melons but if you’re not up to scratch, then at best you’ll be meeting Mr monkey on of rope somewhere, otherwise, you’ll be meeting no one. Balls are important, ability is vital!
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Grob,
Thanks for your comments, and I'll pass them on to my SAR colleagues.
Low & Slow, I genuingly am sorry, but I just don't know what your point is
The only part of your comments that carry any weight with me are those when you refer to people like Von Richtofen. Now I will go along with you and say that he did NEED big balls to get in those machines to fly and fight. But things have moved on just a teenie weenie bit since then.
I have NEVER formally interviewed loads of aircrew, or submariners blah, but everyone I know that has read your thread think you are wrong
None of us believe that physical and/or mental fitness has anything whatsoever to do with being able or unable to do your job well, or becoming sick more often or being unable to concentrate. It's rubbish, utter nonesence
If your results are based on ex 'Thud' drivers, American SF blah, then I cannot comment. But as for me, all my mates, and the vast majority of the military aircrew that I deal with, we feel your talking c**p.
I'm off to bed now, having had a most difficult evening trying to keep Caruthers under control!
Happy (and Safe) New Year to all
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, are you out of bed yet, it's 4pm!!'
Thanks for your comments, and I'll pass them on to my SAR colleagues.
Low & Slow, I genuingly am sorry, but I just don't know what your point is
The only part of your comments that carry any weight with me are those when you refer to people like Von Richtofen. Now I will go along with you and say that he did NEED big balls to get in those machines to fly and fight. But things have moved on just a teenie weenie bit since then.
I have NEVER formally interviewed loads of aircrew, or submariners blah, but everyone I know that has read your thread think you are wrong
None of us believe that physical and/or mental fitness has anything whatsoever to do with being able or unable to do your job well, or becoming sick more often or being unable to concentrate. It's rubbish, utter nonesence
If your results are based on ex 'Thud' drivers, American SF blah, then I cannot comment. But as for me, all my mates, and the vast majority of the military aircrew that I deal with, we feel your talking c**p.
I'm off to bed now, having had a most difficult evening trying to keep Caruthers under control!
Happy (and Safe) New Year to all
Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, are you out of bed yet, it's 4pm!!'
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Caruthers,
Whist I agree that your behaviour the other night was deplorable, I am unable to accept your resignation for anumber of reasons
Firstly, where on earth could I possibly find someone as loyal and devoted as you have been?
Secondly, whilst I was somewhat shocked by the other night, it was undoubtedly jolly good fun for us, and I enjoyed myself immensly, so well done
Lastly, you are far too 'good an egg', for me to let go to one of my colleagues, and thus your position in my employ is guaranteed
Yours in sincerity
The Swinging Monkey
'The Boss'
Whist I agree that your behaviour the other night was deplorable, I am unable to accept your resignation for anumber of reasons
Firstly, where on earth could I possibly find someone as loyal and devoted as you have been?
Secondly, whilst I was somewhat shocked by the other night, it was undoubtedly jolly good fun for us, and I enjoyed myself immensly, so well done
Lastly, you are far too 'good an egg', for me to let go to one of my colleagues, and thus your position in my employ is guaranteed
Yours in sincerity
The Swinging Monkey
'The Boss'
