Crabs In Brno
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Crabs In Brno
HMMM! lets try and be rational about this one!
Spend two weeks working your butt off with the elite then get to go home knackered to find VC10 delayed by two hours and when it does turn up the crew spend an hour faffing around buying their duty free!!
Is this standard RAF practice when you are 2 hours late and to do it in front of your passengers!
Come on boys get a grip!
INCOMING!!
Spend two weeks working your butt off with the elite then get to go home knackered to find VC10 delayed by two hours and when it does turn up the crew spend an hour faffing around buying their duty free!!
Is this standard RAF practice when you are 2 hours late and to do it in front of your passengers!
Come on boys get a grip!
INCOMING!!
Sometimes it takes quite a while to unload/reload freight various, get the manifest correct, get the refuelling completed and the pax numbers agreed before the ac can crank up.
But every effort should be made to depart on time - swanning off to buy the odd bottle would NOT be acceptable if the ac was otherwise ready to depart on time.
Then there's the odd CTOT/ flight plan cock-up to sort out, of course....
These are reasons, not excuses. The fact is that you, like I once used to be, were probably held in some grotty holding pen by the movers and all you saw was the crew nipping off to buy some DF and you weren't told the real reason for your delay or the anticipated ETD - hence you probably jumped to ill-informed conclusions. Sorry (and no, it wasn't me - I'm on leave!) - but there it is. Hope you enjoyed the 34" seat pitch though. A damn sight more than you get on DTMA chartered ac, incidentally!
But every effort should be made to depart on time - swanning off to buy the odd bottle would NOT be acceptable if the ac was otherwise ready to depart on time.
Then there's the odd CTOT/ flight plan cock-up to sort out, of course....
These are reasons, not excuses. The fact is that you, like I once used to be, were probably held in some grotty holding pen by the movers and all you saw was the crew nipping off to buy some DF and you weren't told the real reason for your delay or the anticipated ETD - hence you probably jumped to ill-informed conclusions. Sorry (and no, it wasn't me - I'm on leave!) - but there it is. Hope you enjoyed the 34" seat pitch though. A damn sight more than you get on DTMA chartered ac, incidentally!
It usually takes the engineers a minimum of 1.5 hours to refuel and service the jet and as the crew normally start their pre flights about an hour before there's no reason why they shouldn't stretch their legs and nip off to the duty free shop. Besides it takes a finite time for the movers to give your bags a good kicking before putting most of them on the wrong aircraft!
If it's any consolation the crew that flew the jet out will sometimes have to pax back with you, often spending over 20 hours in the aircraft, so I wouldn't begrudge them a few minutes in the fresh air!
If it's any consolation the crew that flew the jet out will sometimes have to pax back with you, often spending over 20 hours in the aircraft, so I wouldn't begrudge them a few minutes in the fresh air!
Gentleman Aviator
This is probably a silly question ........
Having had the odd jump-seat trip (pre 9/11) with an old mate doing bucket and spade runs in a 757, they consistently turned it round (or a bunch of Manuels or Stavros' did) in < 45 mins.
So why does a VC10 take 1.5-2hrs? Nothing to do with the (excellent) seat pitch surely BEags??
Having had the odd jump-seat trip (pre 9/11) with an old mate doing bucket and spade runs in a 757, they consistently turned it round (or a bunch of Manuels or Stavros' did) in < 45 mins.
So why does a VC10 take 1.5-2hrs? Nothing to do with the (excellent) seat pitch surely BEags??
Several reasons:
1. Most bucKet-and-spade airlines have proper flight dispatch facilities at the airports they use - the load sheet will be ready pretty well straight away. Plus they don't have to rely on the negative synergy of loadmasters versus movers.
2. The constipating bureaucracy of the engineering branch and its approach to aircraft servicing-to-death.
3. Who else operates such ancient aeroplanes? More modern aeroplanes are designed for rapid turn rounds; shut down, punters out, fuel in, cleaners in, cleaners out, punters in crank up and away is the name of the game.
1. Most bucKet-and-spade airlines have proper flight dispatch facilities at the airports they use - the load sheet will be ready pretty well straight away. Plus they don't have to rely on the negative synergy of loadmasters versus movers.
2. The constipating bureaucracy of the engineering branch and its approach to aircraft servicing-to-death.
3. Who else operates such ancient aeroplanes? More modern aeroplanes are designed for rapid turn rounds; shut down, punters out, fuel in, cleaners in, cleaners out, punters in crank up and away is the name of the game.
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suggestion
if you have a complaint about your vc10 crew i would suggest you write to oc 10 sqn, this forum shouldnt be used for inter service bickering. im not going to complain on here about pongos and matelots who try and smuggle contraband in their luggage, i just tell the movers!
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Canberra, when you discourage 'inter-service bickering' on PPrune, do you mean the same bickering that you used in the Falkland's thread? See quote below. Doh!
'what do you mean by winging crab? do you mean whinging crab? by crab do you mean the royal air force that unlike the royal navy and most of the army wasnt on leave at the time of the falklands invasion!! yes we could beat the argies if they decided to invade again, and just like last time we would have to use merchant ships and use the american base on ascension island. and yet again we would be subjected to a navy lead pr campaign that denigrates the raf contribution'.
Just let the guys get on with it.....it normally brings out a few unknown facts for all sides and makes us feel better too!
'what do you mean by winging crab? do you mean whinging crab? by crab do you mean the royal air force that unlike the royal navy and most of the army wasnt on leave at the time of the falklands invasion!! yes we could beat the argies if they decided to invade again, and just like last time we would have to use merchant ships and use the american base on ascension island. and yet again we would be subjected to a navy lead pr campaign that denigrates the raf contribution'.
Just let the guys get on with it.....it normally brings out a few unknown facts for all sides and makes us feel better too!
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I am glad I have envoked such response!
Beags thanks for the enlightenment on VC 10 ops
Canberra Get a life!
And all others maybe the movers should get it. However, we were called backwards and forwards to the aircraft like yo-yo's so maybe a mover would like to comment!
As for lucky to get an aircraft at all! Ummmm They look well well past their sell by date! But It got me from A to B eventually!
Fly Royal/Navy
Beags thanks for the enlightenment on VC 10 ops
Canberra Get a life!
And all others maybe the movers should get it. However, we were called backwards and forwards to the aircraft like yo-yo's so maybe a mover would like to comment!
As for lucky to get an aircraft at all! Ummmm They look well well past their sell by date! But It got me from A to B eventually!
Fly Royal/Navy
Unfortunately some movers give the AT fleet a bad name and AT crews have to suffer their incompetance as well. For example when returning by Tristar from the US the hold baggage had to be checked in 6 hours before the aircraft was due to arrive at the airport. Many hours at later in the UK where were 30% of those bags...............still on the pan 3000 miles away! They'd forgotten to load a whole pallet!!!!
In the old days you could spot the numptys on the pan because they wore council workmans jackets but unfortunately everybody wears them now(except me) so they're difficult to spot. Top tip, if you hear somebody mumbling 'bags on, pax on, pax off bags off' to themselves that'll be a mover!
In the old days you could spot the numptys on the pan because they wore council workmans jackets but unfortunately everybody wears them now(except me) so they're difficult to spot. Top tip, if you hear somebody mumbling 'bags on, pax on, pax off bags off' to themselves that'll be a mover!
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Mover. The sort of person you could punch in the face all day long and still feel no remorse at the end of it. Glad my current type is well out of their reach, even if I have to put my own bag on board.
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CRABS IN BRNO
spec aircrew : what about the ascoteers who swan around down route and give the AT fleet a bad name ??
beagle : bucket and spade airlines do not have the negative synergy of loadmasters v movers for one good reason, they only employ handling agents and not loadmasters !!
reichmann : considering you are one of HM' s finest and a born leader, your ramblings about movers are something i would expect to be scrawled on a toilet wall not here on a sensible forum!
cobalt frog : the yo-yo syndrome of pax on/ pax off was probably due to the crew changing their minds not the movers.
we all have difficult jobs to do in bad conditions, so lets try to improve things not slag each other off, which only enlarges the gap between the sharp and blunty ends.
thank you.
beagle : bucket and spade airlines do not have the negative synergy of loadmasters v movers for one good reason, they only employ handling agents and not loadmasters !!
reichmann : considering you are one of HM' s finest and a born leader, your ramblings about movers are something i would expect to be scrawled on a toilet wall not here on a sensible forum!
cobalt frog : the yo-yo syndrome of pax on/ pax off was probably due to the crew changing their minds not the movers.
we all have difficult jobs to do in bad conditions, so lets try to improve things not slag each other off, which only enlarges the gap between the sharp and blunty ends.
thank you.
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Dear SF Mov
It is merely my considered opinion based on the fact that I've had to suffer the complete jobsworth attitude of the said "bag smashers" for 3 tours.
And I thought pprune was the place to vent my feelings.
And you don't do anything to dispell my feelings with that rather noncy monicker. SF Mov? Ranks along with Tactical Admin Wing. Or are you able to lose luggage whilst wearing NVGs.
And I'll carry my own bags thanks.
It is merely my considered opinion based on the fact that I've had to suffer the complete jobsworth attitude of the said "bag smashers" for 3 tours.
And I thought pprune was the place to vent my feelings.
And you don't do anything to dispell my feelings with that rather noncy monicker. SF Mov? Ranks along with Tactical Admin Wing. Or are you able to lose luggage whilst wearing NVGs.
And I'll carry my own bags thanks.
One has to feel sorry for a mover who feels the need to visit an aircrew website and browse a forum specifically for military aircrew. What's the matter is the Samsonite website a bit boring then?
Actually, my 'negative synergy' comment wasn't intended to provoke a rash of anti-Air Movs rhetoric. What I was getting at is the fact that one's Vickers Funbus will often arrive somewhere with its own movers on board. They will then have the thankless task of unloading it, which might well include having to manhandle loaded freight pallets in very hot climates (whilst wearing those stupid yellow road-diggers' coats), break down and rebuild the damn things, log all the sundry items which our grunt chums wish to include on the pallet and then reload them back into the aeroplane. Then they have to sort out the passenger manifest and prepare the paperwork. This is then given to the ALM who will check it all, check the pallets, query the contents thereof and finally announce that its OK. Bear in mind that they will scrutinise the movers' paperwork with a fine tooth comb and consult The Book at regular intervals to make sure that some obscure regulation hasn't been breached. Once they're happy, the ac load distribution is then calculated and the trim sheet finalised before the aircrew can confirm that the fuel load is OK and that the pax can leave the air conditioned luxury of their executive airport lounge and be herded onboard for their complimentary Moet and canapes....... Or yummy cardboard box.
Having watched the mobile movs mob struggling in the heat at places like Freetown (or even Hannover in high summer) to turn round the load quickly, I can certainly say that theirs isn't always a particularly easy job!
But, of course, communication is everthing and it wouldn't take very much for someone to say "Sorry, the aircraft is being reloaded and refuelled so we'll be keeping you in the lounge until it's ready - but we'll be as quick as we can" rather than lounge around in a yellow coat listening to walkie-talkie squeaks and gargles from the aeroplane, whilst the pax wonder what the heck is really going on! I recall after our APC Det in 1982 looking out of the waiting area at Akrotiri after wondering why we'd been kept hanging around - and there was a step ladder up underneath the wing of 'our' VC10 with some head shaking and chin scratching from the engineers much in evidence. So I rang Air Ops - "Hello, could you confirm that Ascot **** is due to leave at ****Z please?" "No, there's a tech snag which should be fixed in the next hour, so it'll be about 60 minutes late off chocks", came the reply. Then I asked the mover when we'd be boarding "Soon, I think", he said. Told him about the delay but he said that I was wrong. Pointed to the jet outside the window and suggested that he might like to check. He did - then came the Tannoy announcing a 'slight delay'.....
Bucket-and-spade operators have someone to prepare the trim sheet, very simple loads and established routines. So herding the lager louts off and on is indeed pretty simple for them to do in 30 minutes or less.....
Having watched the mobile movs mob struggling in the heat at places like Freetown (or even Hannover in high summer) to turn round the load quickly, I can certainly say that theirs isn't always a particularly easy job!
But, of course, communication is everthing and it wouldn't take very much for someone to say "Sorry, the aircraft is being reloaded and refuelled so we'll be keeping you in the lounge until it's ready - but we'll be as quick as we can" rather than lounge around in a yellow coat listening to walkie-talkie squeaks and gargles from the aeroplane, whilst the pax wonder what the heck is really going on! I recall after our APC Det in 1982 looking out of the waiting area at Akrotiri after wondering why we'd been kept hanging around - and there was a step ladder up underneath the wing of 'our' VC10 with some head shaking and chin scratching from the engineers much in evidence. So I rang Air Ops - "Hello, could you confirm that Ascot **** is due to leave at ****Z please?" "No, there's a tech snag which should be fixed in the next hour, so it'll be about 60 minutes late off chocks", came the reply. Then I asked the mover when we'd be boarding "Soon, I think", he said. Told him about the delay but he said that I was wrong. Pointed to the jet outside the window and suggested that he might like to check. He did - then came the Tannoy announcing a 'slight delay'.....
Bucket-and-spade operators have someone to prepare the trim sheet, very simple loads and established routines. So herding the lager louts off and on is indeed pretty simple for them to do in 30 minutes or less.....
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Beagle, thank you for a considered reply which has partly restored my faith in the Ascoteers.
Spec aircrew/Reichmann, think you should read the pprune home page, where it quite catagorically states " Air traffic controllers, engineers, cabin crew, operations, crewing and rostering staff ARE ALSO WELCOME, as well as ANYBODY else with a connection or interest in professional aviation "
I actually enjoy reading stereotypes like you ranting and raving against anybody and everything, it makes the forum very colourful.
p.s. don't always believe the profile ?
Spec aircrew/Reichmann, think you should read the pprune home page, where it quite catagorically states " Air traffic controllers, engineers, cabin crew, operations, crewing and rostering staff ARE ALSO WELCOME, as well as ANYBODY else with a connection or interest in professional aviation "
I actually enjoy reading stereotypes like you ranting and raving against anybody and everything, it makes the forum very colourful.
p.s. don't always believe the profile ?
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SF Mov,
Oh come on, I don't rant against everything - just movers.
You should be proud to be in a profession at the top of my list of Professions We Can Do Without:
1. Movers
2. Brize Air Traffic
3. RAF Police
4. Ops Support
And how do you know I'm a stereotype? I like all forms of High Fidelity music systems.
Luv
Reichman
Oh come on, I don't rant against everything - just movers.
You should be proud to be in a profession at the top of my list of Professions We Can Do Without:
1. Movers
2. Brize Air Traffic
3. RAF Police
4. Ops Support
And how do you know I'm a stereotype? I like all forms of High Fidelity music systems.
Luv
Reichman
