Ukraine War Thread Part 4
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From: PPRuNe
Ukraine War Thread Part 4
This is V4 of the Military Forum Ukraine War thread, the aim of which is to discuss the Military Aspect of the war.
Not US Politics, not UK Politics, nor digressions into wotifs about Russia and the US President. There are other Threads in JetBlast for that along with the Military Forum NATO/Russia discussion.
Long term Military Forum members plus the Mod Team spend far too much time wading through off topic meanderings; let’s all get back on track and treat this as what it is: an Aviation Forum dedicated to Military operations.
Thanks,
Not US Politics, not UK Politics, nor digressions into wotifs about Russia and the US President. There are other Threads in JetBlast for that along with the Military Forum NATO/Russia discussion.
Long term Military Forum members plus the Mod Team spend far too much time wading through off topic meanderings; let’s all get back on track and treat this as what it is: an Aviation Forum dedicated to Military operations.
Thanks,
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30th June 2025, 08:31
Joined: Mar 2018
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From: Central UK
I frankly find it beyond comprehension that anyone could be so morally and rationally disfunctional as to bias against Ukraine under a brutal, murderous, probably geniocidal war-crime assault on the basis that Zelensky is "crooked", an allegation supported by no evidence whatsoever that I have heard or seen.
This is roughly equivalent to expressing sympathy for Hitler on the basis that the Polish President allegedly once forgot to return a library book.
Whatever happened to a sense of proportion?
This is roughly equivalent to expressing sympathy for Hitler on the basis that the Polish President allegedly once forgot to return a library book.
Whatever happened to a sense of proportion?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
Ukraine War Thread Part 4
F-16s delivered to Ukraine don't have Link 16, assumption is they are being modified/fitted with MIDS-LVT or TIDLS*?
Swedish MoD has made a statement about the transfer of AWACS aircraft to Ukraine.
" The delivery dates of ASC890 long-range radar detection aircraft are not lagging behind the schedule, the transfer will take place when certain modifications of F-16s are ready."
* https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...93/post-396588
Swedish MoD has made a statement about the transfer of AWACS aircraft to Ukraine.
" The delivery dates of ASC890 long-range radar detection aircraft are not lagging behind the schedule, the transfer will take place when certain modifications of F-16s are ready."
* https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/thr...93/post-396588
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Engels burning.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Satellite views of Engels after the strikes, weapons storage areas?
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From: Texas
Originally Posted by Beamr;1 1851141
Meanwhile at the front: yet another milestone achieved by the Kremlin mastermind as Russian casualties exceed 900k. At this rate the total Russian casualties will exceed 1 million by July.
I have to quote Al Jazeera because a lot of others seem to want to talk about something else.
Originally Posted by Al Jazeera
Fighting
- Russia has pounded Ukraine’s Black Sea city of Odesa, with one of its biggest drone attacks overnight, injuring three teenagers and sparking fires as the Czech President Petr Pavel visited, Ukrainian officials said.
- Russia has accused Ukraine of blowing up a major Russian gas pumping and measuring station near the town of Sudzha in the Kursk region near the Ukrainian border in what it called “an act of terrorism.” The Ukrainian military has denied involvement in the attack.
- The Russian government imposed a state of emergency in the district of Engels in the Saratov region after Ukrainian drones set off a huge blast and fire at a military airfield there, local officials said. Reuters reported several damaged buildings, while the region’s Ministry of Health said 10 people were injured.
- Russia’s Ministry of Defence said its units destroyed 132 Ukrainian “unmanned aerial vehicles” in an overnight attack on six regions of the country, including 54 in Saratov.
- Kyiv’s air force said its troops shot down 75 of 171 drones launched by Russia at Ukraine overnight, while another 63 were “lost” due to electronic warfare.
Last edited by T28B; 23rd March 2025 at 14:54. Reason: clean it up please
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
Another reconstruction bill to chalk up for Russia to pay.....
JUST IN- The Russian drone strike on Chernobyl’s New Safe Confinement (NSC) has significantly damaged its structure, leaving it unable to function as designed.
According to Greenpeace Ukraine, 50% of the northern roof, as well as the southern roof and side walls, were damaged by the resulting fire. Critical components, including the crane system, were also seriously affected. The damage has allowed both snow and water to seep under the arch, creating a potential corrosion threat. As a result, the NSC no longer meets its original design and licensing requirements.
Nuclear energy expert Jan Vande Putte warns that due to high radiation levels above the sarcophagus, repairs may require moving the entire NSC back to its original assembly site, an operation that would be extremely costly.
Greenpeace says the future of the project is now "uncertain at best."
According to Greenpeace Ukraine, 50% of the northern roof, as well as the southern roof and side walls, were damaged by the resulting fire. Critical components, including the crane system, were also seriously affected. The damage has allowed both snow and water to seep under the arch, creating a potential corrosion threat. As a result, the NSC no longer meets its original design and licensing requirements.
Nuclear energy expert Jan Vande Putte warns that due to high radiation levels above the sarcophagus, repairs may require moving the entire NSC back to its original assembly site, an operation that would be extremely costly.
Greenpeace says the future of the project is now "uncertain at best."
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
Russia's shortage of armoured vehicles and lack of an analogue for the M113 APC or M2A2 Bradley IFV has led soldiers to weld troop-carrying 'booths' onto rusting Soviet-era MT-LB armoured fighting vehicles. It highlights the Russian defence industry's failure to adapt…..
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...aign=topunroll
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...aign=topunroll
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From: Co. Down
The scenes of exploding Russian transport are great but only too few. The damned things and their hapless cargo just keep coming and the brave Ukrainians can't withstand this pressure forever. Even stone is worn away by dripping water.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
Big news - Ukrainian sources write that today, soldiers of the army special forces shot down/destroyed 4 Russian helicopters.
We are waiting for photo-video evidence.
We are waiting for photo-video evidence.
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From: London
Smaller countries can defeat much bigger ones. Vietnam and Afghanistan for example, but they have to play to their strengths, and it takes time.
I believe Ukraine needs drones and long-range missiles. Millions of them.
If Russia keeps invading, Ukraine launches 10,000+ long range drones every night until there's nothing left of Russia's economy.
I believe Ukraine needs drones and long-range missiles. Millions of them.
If Russia keeps invading, Ukraine launches 10,000+ long range drones every night until there's nothing left of Russia's economy.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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From: Peripatetic
ISW Ukraine war update.
US Special Envoy to the Middle East Steve Witkoff uncritically amplified a number of Russian demands, claims, and justifications regarding the war in Ukraine during an interview on March 21.
Witkoff told American media personality Tucker Carlson in an interview published on March 21 that Russia "100 percent" does not want to invade Europe and that Russia "does not need to absorb Ukraine."
Witkoff stated that Russia "reclaimed" five regions in Ukraine — Crimea and Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts — and that Russia "has gotten what [it] wants" and will not want more. The Kremlin has repeatedly and falsely claimed that Crimea and these four oblasts are Russian territory contrary to international law, and Witkoff's statement about Russia "reclaiming" these areas (which Russia has illegally occupied and annexed) amplifies the Kremlin's justifications for its expansionist territorial demands and multiple invasions of Ukraine.
Vladislav Surkov, a former close adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin, recently reiterated a number of longstanding Kremlin claims and ambitions that directly contradict Witkoff's assertions in an interview with French media aimed at Western audiences.
Surkov previously served as a long-time close advisor to Putin and organized protests in Crimea against the Ukrainian government in 2014. Surkov also oversaw the Kremlin's 2014-2015 project to promote the creation of "Novorossiya" (an amorphous, invented region in Ukraine that Kremlin officials have claimed includes all of southern and eastern Ukraine and is an "integral" part of Russia) in eastern Ukraine. Putin relieved Surkov of his duties as Presidential Aide in February 2020.
Surkov stated in an interview with French outlet L'Express on March 19 that a Russian victory in Ukraine would be the "military or military and diplomatic crushing of Ukraine" and the "division of this artificial quasi-state into its natural fragments." Surkov stated that Russia will achieve this strategic objective — which Surkov stated has not changed since the start of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 — even if there are "maneuvers, slowdowns, and pauses along the way."
Surkov stated that the return of Ukraine to Russia's desired and self-defined sphere of influence has been a Russian objective since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Surkov claimed that "Ukraine is an artificial political entity" consisting of "at least" three regions — the "Russian" southern and eastern Ukraine, the "Russian-non-Russian" central area, and the "anti-Russian" west. Surkov claimed that Russia's war in Ukraine "will separate the Russians and the anti-Russians" and will "confine" the "anti-Russians" to their "historical territory" such that they "stop spreading across Russian soil."
Surkov claimed that "perhaps" Ukraine will exist as a "real state" in the future but as a much smaller entity. Surkov implied that Europe will be involved in the future partitioning of Ukraine, claiming that "a balanced division of Ukraine will have to include a share for Brussels."
Surkov responded to a question about how he sees Russian borders, stating that the ideology of the Russian World (Russkiy Mir) "has no borders" and exists "everywhere there is Russian influence," including cultural, military, economic, ideological, or humanitarian influence. Surkov claimed that Russia's influence varies across regions in the world, but "is never zero." Surkov claimed that Russia "will spread out in all directions." The Kremlin has repeatedly used the idea of the Russian World to justify Russian military interventions into former Soviet states and to claim that areas of the former Soviet Union and Russian Empire are historical Russian territories.
Surkov's statements about Russia's claims over southern and eastern Ukraine and the future expansion of Russkiy Mir are in direct contrast to Witkoff's statement that Russia has no territorial ambitions beyond Crimea and Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts.
Surkov's statements are consistent with those made by Putin and senior Russian officials, who have recently and repeatedly stated that Russia intends to bring Ukraine under Russian control and establish suzerainty over neighboring countries in order to weaken the West and strengthen Russia's global influence.
Senior Russian officials have recently reiterated that any future peace settlement must address the "root causes" of the war, which Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov defined as recently as March 10, 2025, as the alleged "threats to Russia's security from the Ukrainian and Western directions in general" that are due to NATO's eastward expansion and the Ukrainian government's alleged "extermination" of everything that is "connected with Russia and the Russkiy Mir," including Russian language, culture, Orthodoxy, and media.
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko acknowledged on March 17, 2025, that Russia's demands for Ukrainian neutrality and NATO's refusal to allow Ukraine into the alliance are the same demands that Russia made in 2021 before its full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
Putin's 2021 demands also stipulated that NATO commit to not accepting any countries as new members and that NATO not deploy any military forces to states that became NATO members after May 1997; would ban any NATO military activity in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, and Central Asia; would ban deployments of intermediate-range missiles in areas that could reach Russian or NATO state territory; and would ban the United States from deploying intermediate-range missiles in Europe or nuclear missiles outside of US territory.
The Kremlin has used the "Russkiy Mir" narrative for decades to justify Russian aggression in Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova and to set conditions to influence independent countries once colonized by the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire.
Putin and other senior Russian officials have repeatedly propagated pseudo-history to deny Ukrainian statehood and nationhood and have falsely asserted that Ukraine's Western neighbors have legitimate claims to Ukrainian territory in an effort to sow division between Ukraine and Europe.
Putin has recently reamplified Russia's territorial demands that Ukraine cede all of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts, including areas that Russian forces do not currently occupy, amid ongoing bilateral US-Russia negotiations.
Putin and other Russian officials have also recently reamplified Russian narratives that "Novorossiya," which Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitry Peskov has defined as all of eastern and southern Ukraine including Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Mykolaiv, and Odesa oblasts, is an "integral" part of Russia.
Putin has used the term "Novorossiya" to refer to eastern and southern Ukraine since 2014 to set informational conditions to justify Russia's occupation and territorial ambitions and claimed in 2023 that Odesa City, Crimea, and the entire "Black Sea region" have nothing "to do with Ukraine."
Witkoff uncritically repeated several inaccurate Russian claims regarding the status of the Ukrainian territories that Russia illegally occupies.
Witkoff claimed during the March 21 interview that Russian-occupied Crimea, Donbas, and Kherson and Zaporizhia oblasts are "Russian-speaking" and that "there have been referendums [in these regions] where the overwhelming majority of people have indicated that they want to be under Russian rule."
Russia has long used similar claims to justify its unprovoked aggression against Ukraine, having used the claim that Russia needs to "protect Russian-speakers" in eastern Ukraine to justify the launch of its full-scale invasion in 2022. Russia has routinely undermined its own myth of "protecting Russian speakers" in Ukraine, however, destroying predominantly Russian-speaking cities in eastern Ukraine, killing Russian-speaking Ukrainians, and deporting Russian-speaking Ukrainian children to Russia in violation of international law. The Russian invasions of Ukraine have never been about protecting Russian speakers.
The assertion that the "overwhelming majority" of Ukrainians living under Russian occupation want to be under Russian control is also demonstrably false.
Russian manipulations and coercive control tactics in occupied Ukraine are inconsistent with the claim that all residents of occupied Ukraine "want" to be part of Russia. Russia staged sham referendums in Crimea and parts of Donbas in 2014 and then in Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts in 2022 in an attempt to claim that most of the population "voted" to be annexed by Russia.
These referendums were all conducted under an intense Russian military presence and without legitimate election observers, and Russian authorities likely falsified attendance statistics and manipulated ballots. Annexation referendums in 2022 did not account for the millions of Ukrainians who fled their homes to avoid living under Russian occupation. Russian forces used physical intimidation to force Ukrainian civilians to vote for annexation during the 2022 referendums, with reports from occupied Zaporizhia Oblast suggesting that Russian occupation authorities instituted "at-home" voting in order to allow Russian security forces to enter the homes of Ukrainians and threaten them into voting for annexation at gunpoint. Russian occupation officials also made their provision of humanitarian aid and basic necessities contingent on Ukrainians voting for annexation in the 2022 referendums.
Russian demographic manipulations and mass indoctrination in occupied Ukraine are also at odds with the claim that Ukrainians living under occupation want to be under Russian control.
Russian occupation administrators have had to institute coercive measures to force residents into obtaining Russian passports, threatening to deny Ukrainians access to basic services and medical care — demonstrating that there is no mass support in occupied Ukraine for Russian citizenship offers. The extent of Russian pressure on populations in occupied areas is another strong indicator that residents of these areas do not want to be part of Russia but must be coerced to "Russify" — something that should be unnecessary among people who already identify as Russians.
Russia has also embarked on a state-directed effort to deport Ukrainians from occupied Ukraine and to import Russians to live in occupied Ukraine, using manipulated demographic data to create the impression that there are more people willingly living in occupied areas. Russia would not have to forcibly deport millions of Ukrainians to Russia if these Ukrainians actually wanted to be part of Russia.
Witkoff's statements undermine US President Donald Trump's stated desired end state for the war in Ukraine that achieves an enduring peace and is in the best interests of the United States, Ukraine, and Europe.
Trump has said that the United States will try to return as much territory to Ukraine as possible. Trump also recently stated that the United States is interested in taking control of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP), which Russian forces currently occupy — implying that Russia would have to cede this territory in Zaporizhia Oblast before the United States can take control of the ZNPP.
Witkoff's March 21 presentation of Russia's territorial demands for the entirety of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts — including areas of these four oblasts that Russian forces do not currently occupy — undermines Trump's efforts to achieve a resolution to the war favorable to US interests. Ceding territory in these four oblasts to Russia — either along the current frontlines or along the oblasts' administrative boundaries – would not provide Ukraine with the defensible lines required to reliably defend against renewed Russian aggression in the future, hindering Trump's stated objective of securing a lasting, sustainable peace in Ukraine.
Witkoff also claimed that Ukrainian officials have "conceded" that Ukraine will not be a member of NATO — a preemptive US concession to Russia on one of the Kremlin's main demands as Russia continues to make no concessions in return. Witkoff's statements appear to yield to multiple Kremlin demands before the start of official negotiations for a peace settlement, ceding valuable US and Ukrainian leverage over Russia in future negotiations that the United States will need in order to achieve Trump's desired end to the war.
Witkoff told American media personality Tucker Carlson in an interview published on March 21 that Russia "100 percent" does not want to invade Europe and that Russia "does not need to absorb Ukraine."
Witkoff stated that Russia "reclaimed" five regions in Ukraine — Crimea and Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts — and that Russia "has gotten what [it] wants" and will not want more. The Kremlin has repeatedly and falsely claimed that Crimea and these four oblasts are Russian territory contrary to international law, and Witkoff's statement about Russia "reclaiming" these areas (which Russia has illegally occupied and annexed) amplifies the Kremlin's justifications for its expansionist territorial demands and multiple invasions of Ukraine.
Vladislav Surkov, a former close adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin, recently reiterated a number of longstanding Kremlin claims and ambitions that directly contradict Witkoff's assertions in an interview with French media aimed at Western audiences.
Surkov previously served as a long-time close advisor to Putin and organized protests in Crimea against the Ukrainian government in 2014. Surkov also oversaw the Kremlin's 2014-2015 project to promote the creation of "Novorossiya" (an amorphous, invented region in Ukraine that Kremlin officials have claimed includes all of southern and eastern Ukraine and is an "integral" part of Russia) in eastern Ukraine. Putin relieved Surkov of his duties as Presidential Aide in February 2020.
Surkov stated in an interview with French outlet L'Express on March 19 that a Russian victory in Ukraine would be the "military or military and diplomatic crushing of Ukraine" and the "division of this artificial quasi-state into its natural fragments." Surkov stated that Russia will achieve this strategic objective — which Surkov stated has not changed since the start of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 — even if there are "maneuvers, slowdowns, and pauses along the way."
Surkov stated that the return of Ukraine to Russia's desired and self-defined sphere of influence has been a Russian objective since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Surkov claimed that "Ukraine is an artificial political entity" consisting of "at least" three regions — the "Russian" southern and eastern Ukraine, the "Russian-non-Russian" central area, and the "anti-Russian" west. Surkov claimed that Russia's war in Ukraine "will separate the Russians and the anti-Russians" and will "confine" the "anti-Russians" to their "historical territory" such that they "stop spreading across Russian soil."
Surkov claimed that "perhaps" Ukraine will exist as a "real state" in the future but as a much smaller entity. Surkov implied that Europe will be involved in the future partitioning of Ukraine, claiming that "a balanced division of Ukraine will have to include a share for Brussels."
Surkov responded to a question about how he sees Russian borders, stating that the ideology of the Russian World (Russkiy Mir) "has no borders" and exists "everywhere there is Russian influence," including cultural, military, economic, ideological, or humanitarian influence. Surkov claimed that Russia's influence varies across regions in the world, but "is never zero." Surkov claimed that Russia "will spread out in all directions." The Kremlin has repeatedly used the idea of the Russian World to justify Russian military interventions into former Soviet states and to claim that areas of the former Soviet Union and Russian Empire are historical Russian territories.
Surkov's statements about Russia's claims over southern and eastern Ukraine and the future expansion of Russkiy Mir are in direct contrast to Witkoff's statement that Russia has no territorial ambitions beyond Crimea and Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts.
Surkov's statements are consistent with those made by Putin and senior Russian officials, who have recently and repeatedly stated that Russia intends to bring Ukraine under Russian control and establish suzerainty over neighboring countries in order to weaken the West and strengthen Russia's global influence.
Senior Russian officials have recently reiterated that any future peace settlement must address the "root causes" of the war, which Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov defined as recently as March 10, 2025, as the alleged "threats to Russia's security from the Ukrainian and Western directions in general" that are due to NATO's eastward expansion and the Ukrainian government's alleged "extermination" of everything that is "connected with Russia and the Russkiy Mir," including Russian language, culture, Orthodoxy, and media.
Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko acknowledged on March 17, 2025, that Russia's demands for Ukrainian neutrality and NATO's refusal to allow Ukraine into the alliance are the same demands that Russia made in 2021 before its full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
Putin's 2021 demands also stipulated that NATO commit to not accepting any countries as new members and that NATO not deploy any military forces to states that became NATO members after May 1997; would ban any NATO military activity in Ukraine, Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, and Central Asia; would ban deployments of intermediate-range missiles in areas that could reach Russian or NATO state territory; and would ban the United States from deploying intermediate-range missiles in Europe or nuclear missiles outside of US territory.
The Kremlin has used the "Russkiy Mir" narrative for decades to justify Russian aggression in Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova and to set conditions to influence independent countries once colonized by the Soviet Union and the Russian Empire.
Putin and other senior Russian officials have repeatedly propagated pseudo-history to deny Ukrainian statehood and nationhood and have falsely asserted that Ukraine's Western neighbors have legitimate claims to Ukrainian territory in an effort to sow division between Ukraine and Europe.
Putin has recently reamplified Russia's territorial demands that Ukraine cede all of Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts, including areas that Russian forces do not currently occupy, amid ongoing bilateral US-Russia negotiations.
Putin and other Russian officials have also recently reamplified Russian narratives that "Novorossiya," which Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitry Peskov has defined as all of eastern and southern Ukraine including Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Mykolaiv, and Odesa oblasts, is an "integral" part of Russia.
Putin has used the term "Novorossiya" to refer to eastern and southern Ukraine since 2014 to set informational conditions to justify Russia's occupation and territorial ambitions and claimed in 2023 that Odesa City, Crimea, and the entire "Black Sea region" have nothing "to do with Ukraine."
Witkoff uncritically repeated several inaccurate Russian claims regarding the status of the Ukrainian territories that Russia illegally occupies.
Witkoff claimed during the March 21 interview that Russian-occupied Crimea, Donbas, and Kherson and Zaporizhia oblasts are "Russian-speaking" and that "there have been referendums [in these regions] where the overwhelming majority of people have indicated that they want to be under Russian rule."
Russia has long used similar claims to justify its unprovoked aggression against Ukraine, having used the claim that Russia needs to "protect Russian-speakers" in eastern Ukraine to justify the launch of its full-scale invasion in 2022. Russia has routinely undermined its own myth of "protecting Russian speakers" in Ukraine, however, destroying predominantly Russian-speaking cities in eastern Ukraine, killing Russian-speaking Ukrainians, and deporting Russian-speaking Ukrainian children to Russia in violation of international law. The Russian invasions of Ukraine have never been about protecting Russian speakers.
The assertion that the "overwhelming majority" of Ukrainians living under Russian occupation want to be under Russian control is also demonstrably false.
Russian manipulations and coercive control tactics in occupied Ukraine are inconsistent with the claim that all residents of occupied Ukraine "want" to be part of Russia. Russia staged sham referendums in Crimea and parts of Donbas in 2014 and then in Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts in 2022 in an attempt to claim that most of the population "voted" to be annexed by Russia.
These referendums were all conducted under an intense Russian military presence and without legitimate election observers, and Russian authorities likely falsified attendance statistics and manipulated ballots. Annexation referendums in 2022 did not account for the millions of Ukrainians who fled their homes to avoid living under Russian occupation. Russian forces used physical intimidation to force Ukrainian civilians to vote for annexation during the 2022 referendums, with reports from occupied Zaporizhia Oblast suggesting that Russian occupation authorities instituted "at-home" voting in order to allow Russian security forces to enter the homes of Ukrainians and threaten them into voting for annexation at gunpoint. Russian occupation officials also made their provision of humanitarian aid and basic necessities contingent on Ukrainians voting for annexation in the 2022 referendums.
Russian demographic manipulations and mass indoctrination in occupied Ukraine are also at odds with the claim that Ukrainians living under occupation want to be under Russian control.
Russian occupation administrators have had to institute coercive measures to force residents into obtaining Russian passports, threatening to deny Ukrainians access to basic services and medical care — demonstrating that there is no mass support in occupied Ukraine for Russian citizenship offers. The extent of Russian pressure on populations in occupied areas is another strong indicator that residents of these areas do not want to be part of Russia but must be coerced to "Russify" — something that should be unnecessary among people who already identify as Russians.
Russia has also embarked on a state-directed effort to deport Ukrainians from occupied Ukraine and to import Russians to live in occupied Ukraine, using manipulated demographic data to create the impression that there are more people willingly living in occupied areas. Russia would not have to forcibly deport millions of Ukrainians to Russia if these Ukrainians actually wanted to be part of Russia.
Witkoff's statements undermine US President Donald Trump's stated desired end state for the war in Ukraine that achieves an enduring peace and is in the best interests of the United States, Ukraine, and Europe.
Trump has said that the United States will try to return as much territory to Ukraine as possible. Trump also recently stated that the United States is interested in taking control of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP), which Russian forces currently occupy — implying that Russia would have to cede this territory in Zaporizhia Oblast before the United States can take control of the ZNPP.
Witkoff's March 21 presentation of Russia's territorial demands for the entirety of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, and Kherson oblasts — including areas of these four oblasts that Russian forces do not currently occupy — undermines Trump's efforts to achieve a resolution to the war favorable to US interests. Ceding territory in these four oblasts to Russia — either along the current frontlines or along the oblasts' administrative boundaries – would not provide Ukraine with the defensible lines required to reliably defend against renewed Russian aggression in the future, hindering Trump's stated objective of securing a lasting, sustainable peace in Ukraine.
Witkoff also claimed that Ukrainian officials have "conceded" that Ukraine will not be a member of NATO — a preemptive US concession to Russia on one of the Kremlin's main demands as Russia continues to make no concessions in return. Witkoff's statements appear to yield to multiple Kremlin demands before the start of official negotiations for a peace settlement, ceding valuable US and Ukrainian leverage over Russia in future negotiations that the United States will need in order to achieve Trump's desired end to the war.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 24,546
Likes: 7,278
From: Peripatetic
China may send peacekeepers to Ukraine, Beijing is discussing this option with the EU, — Welt am Sonntag
https://www.politico.eu/article/chin...eping-mission/
China reportedly mulling participation in Ukraine peacekeeping mission
Beijing’s inclusion in the mission “could potentially increase Russia’s acceptance of peacekeeping forces in Ukraine,” EU diplomats tell Welt.
Strategic Implications of China's Potential Involvement in Ukraine Peacekeeping Mission
- Geopolitical Leverage for China: China's participation could position it as a key mediator, enhancing its influence over Russia and the EU, securing a strategic foothold in European security dynamics.
- Pressure on Russia: With China's involvement, Russia may face increased diplomatic pressure to accept peacekeeping forces, potentially weakening its resistance to a ceasefire and altering the conflict's trajectory.
- Risk of Escalation: Beijing's alignment with Moscow could embolden Russia, risking a more assertive stance against Western interests, potentially escalating tensions in the region.
- Deploying Chinese forces would require significant logistical coordination, straining resources and possibly diverting attention from other strategic priorities like Taiwan.
- EU Vulnerability: A joint China-Russia presence in Ukraine could exploit the EU's defensive weaknesses, creating a long-term security threat on the continent.
- Market data indicates only a 2.15% chance of a Russia-Ukraine ceasefire in March, suggesting limited immediate impact but potential for longer-term diplomatic shifts.
- Operational Challenges: China's lack of experience in European peacekeeping missions may lead to inefficiencies, requiring robust leadership and adaptability to navigate unfamiliar terrain and political complexities.
-Strategic Advantage for the West: If managed carefully, the West could use China's involvement to drive a wedge between Beijing and Moscow, exploiting any misalignments to weaken their partnership.
https://www.politico.eu/article/chin...eping-mission/
China reportedly mulling participation in Ukraine peacekeeping mission
Beijing’s inclusion in the mission “could potentially increase Russia’s acceptance of peacekeeping forces in Ukraine,” EU diplomats tell Welt.
Strategic Implications of China's Potential Involvement in Ukraine Peacekeeping Mission
- Geopolitical Leverage for China: China's participation could position it as a key mediator, enhancing its influence over Russia and the EU, securing a strategic foothold in European security dynamics.
- Pressure on Russia: With China's involvement, Russia may face increased diplomatic pressure to accept peacekeeping forces, potentially weakening its resistance to a ceasefire and altering the conflict's trajectory.
- Risk of Escalation: Beijing's alignment with Moscow could embolden Russia, risking a more assertive stance against Western interests, potentially escalating tensions in the region.
- Deploying Chinese forces would require significant logistical coordination, straining resources and possibly diverting attention from other strategic priorities like Taiwan.
- EU Vulnerability: A joint China-Russia presence in Ukraine could exploit the EU's defensive weaknesses, creating a long-term security threat on the continent.
- Market data indicates only a 2.15% chance of a Russia-Ukraine ceasefire in March, suggesting limited immediate impact but potential for longer-term diplomatic shifts.
- Operational Challenges: China's lack of experience in European peacekeeping missions may lead to inefficiencies, requiring robust leadership and adaptability to navigate unfamiliar terrain and political complexities.
-Strategic Advantage for the West: If managed carefully, the West could use China's involvement to drive a wedge between Beijing and Moscow, exploiting any misalignments to weaken their partnership.
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: not scotland
China may send peacekeepers to Ukraine, Beijing is discussing this option with the EU, — Welt am Sonntag
https://www.politico.eu/article/chin...eping-mission/
China reportedly mulling participation in Ukraine peacekeeping mission
Beijing’s inclusion in the mission “could potentially increase Russia’s acceptance of peacekeeping forces in Ukraine,” EU diplomats tell Welt.
Strategic Implications of China's Potential Involvement in Ukraine Peacekeeping Mission
- Geopolitical Leverage for China: China's participation could position it as a key mediator, enhancing its influence over Russia and the EU, securing a strategic foothold in European security dynamics.
- Pressure on Russia: With China's involvement, Russia may face increased diplomatic pressure to accept peacekeeping forces, potentially weakening its resistance to a ceasefire and altering the conflict's trajectory.
- Risk of Escalation: Beijing's alignment with Moscow could embolden Russia, risking a more assertive stance against Western interests, potentially escalating tensions in the region.
- Deploying Chinese forces would require significant logistical coordination, straining resources and possibly diverting attention from other strategic priorities like Taiwan.
- EU Vulnerability: A joint China-Russia presence in Ukraine could exploit the EU's defensive weaknesses, creating a long-term security threat on the continent.
- Market data indicates only a 2.15% chance of a Russia-Ukraine ceasefire in March, suggesting limited immediate impact but potential for longer-term diplomatic shifts.
- Operational Challenges: China's lack of experience in European peacekeeping missions may lead to inefficiencies, requiring robust leadership and adaptability to navigate unfamiliar terrain and political complexities.
-Strategic Advantage for the West: If managed carefully, the West could use China's involvement to drive a wedge between Beijing and Moscow, exploiting any misalignments to weaken their partnership.
https://www.politico.eu/article/chin...eping-mission/
China reportedly mulling participation in Ukraine peacekeeping mission
Beijing’s inclusion in the mission “could potentially increase Russia’s acceptance of peacekeeping forces in Ukraine,” EU diplomats tell Welt.
Strategic Implications of China's Potential Involvement in Ukraine Peacekeeping Mission
- Geopolitical Leverage for China: China's participation could position it as a key mediator, enhancing its influence over Russia and the EU, securing a strategic foothold in European security dynamics.
- Pressure on Russia: With China's involvement, Russia may face increased diplomatic pressure to accept peacekeeping forces, potentially weakening its resistance to a ceasefire and altering the conflict's trajectory.
- Risk of Escalation: Beijing's alignment with Moscow could embolden Russia, risking a more assertive stance against Western interests, potentially escalating tensions in the region.
- Deploying Chinese forces would require significant logistical coordination, straining resources and possibly diverting attention from other strategic priorities like Taiwan.
- EU Vulnerability: A joint China-Russia presence in Ukraine could exploit the EU's defensive weaknesses, creating a long-term security threat on the continent.
- Market data indicates only a 2.15% chance of a Russia-Ukraine ceasefire in March, suggesting limited immediate impact but potential for longer-term diplomatic shifts.
- Operational Challenges: China's lack of experience in European peacekeeping missions may lead to inefficiencies, requiring robust leadership and adaptability to navigate unfamiliar terrain and political complexities.
-Strategic Advantage for the West: If managed carefully, the West could use China's involvement to drive a wedge between Beijing and Moscow, exploiting any misalignments to weaken their partnership.
It’ll never happen but it would certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons.
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From: Texas
Fighting
(Summary of events on 24 March)- Ukraine’s Air Force said it destroyed 97 of 147 Russian drones in an overnight attack on multiple Ukrainian regions. A further 25 drones were reportedly “lost” due to electronic warfare.
- Russian news agency Interfax reported Russia’s Defence Ministry as saying its forces captured the village of Sribne in Ukraine’s eastern Donetsk region.
- Russian attacks on the Donetsk region killed four people, including three who were killed in a strike on Dobropillia, a town on the front lines of the war.
- At least one person was killed and several injured in an explosion at a police station in the Odesa region, southern Ukraine, local media reported. Witness statements cited in the reports said the explosion was caused by a woman who walked into the building with an explosive device in a plastic bag.
- Russia launched its third consecutive overnight attack on Kyiv, wounding a 37-year-old man and damaging several houses, Kyiv’s regional Governor Mykola Kalashnyk said. The man sustained injuries to his upper body and head from shrapnel and was later hospitalised, Kalashnyk added.
- In a separate attack in the southeastern Zaporizhzhia region, a 54-year-old woman was injured and several multistorey buildings were damaged, the region’s administration said.
Pro Tip for HOVIS: I have found that in this thread, if you post about the war, the post tends to stay. When we meander off onto other topics some posts get scrubbed.
I am not sure what confuses you.
That picture you posted about the wires (fiber optic?) from the guided munitions is for sure war related. (And by the way, thanks,
that's a neat capture of what happens when wire guided weapons are used).
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 24th March 2025 at 19:23.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Ukraine managed to take out four Russian helicopters on the ground with HIMARS using M30A1 missiles nr Belogrod, I doubt they will fly anytime soon, those tungsten balls will have decimated them.
Last edited by T28B; 25th March 2025 at 03:59. Reason: Don't do that again
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Ukraine has made some advances.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Finally some unity, and Orban given a short shrift, perhaps now we can move forward defending Ukraine.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
What a bunch of Bastards the Russians are.
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Swedish provided AWACs will be able to work with the F16’s and
patriot IFF..
patriot IFF..