War on woke

[Timelord]

Just re reading that letter the phrase that jumps out to me is; “…..our descent into self hatred…..”. Why would a young person of any ethnic background or sexual orientation decide to fight for the UK when he or she has been bombarded with messages from all kinds of media that we are a wicked,racist, bigoted, misogynistic , xxxphobic country with a history of slave trading and colonialism to be ashamed of. What we need is some positive messaging of British history and values.

[vascodegama]

Originally Posted by Sue Vêtements

Except you could also look at it this way: Why not have the standard be that you must be able to lift a jeep over your head or single handedly pull it out of axle deep mud? The answer is obviously because nobody would pass, so they make standards that the people they want or think they should accept can pass. In effect the tail is wagging the dog

If the response is that "well this equipment weighs this much" or "that equipment is that particular dimension" then it's only because they're designed that way to meet the existing standards

Making different standards for women is no more a compromise than making standards for men that are designed to be achieved

To have a role related fitness test (assuming it is a valid test) that is gender fair is indirect discrimination (against men) and illegal. A few police forces have fallen foul of that one.

[langleybaston]

Originally Posted by Sue Vêtements

Except you could also look at it this way: Why not have the standard be that you must be able to lift a jeep over your head or single handedly pull it out of axle deep mud? The answer is obviously because nobody would pass, so they make standards that the people they want or think they should accept can pass. In effect the tail is wagging the dog

If the response is that "well this equipment weighs this much" or "that equipment is that particular dimension" then it's only because they're designed that way to meet the existing standards

Making different standards for women is no more a compromise than making standards for men that are designed to be achieved

As a nearly extreme example, the Falklands Yomps were, I read, gut-wrenchingly difficult. An absolute physical and mental [guts] standard is necessary for fighting troops, and if any person can pass they pass. Other roles need different entry standards, but no exceptions made.

[Less Hair]

In 20 years we will look at all this wokeism with a smile like at McCarthyism.

[trim it out]

Originally Posted by NutLoose

I recently saw the army’s latest advert with the Muslim praying on exercise, I have added it below.

https://youtu.be/OQ4OoPNY_YM?feature=shared

my question is it might be acceptable on an exercise and I wouldn’t prevent anyone following their faith, but I do wonder how that will fit in with actual combat situations, flying an aircraft or fighter etc..

None if the Muslims I was alongside in combat stopped to pray as per the advert. It's artistic license.

The only time I'd say Faith got in the way of fighting was during Ramadan when fatigue hit hard.

[TURIN]

[cynicalint]

Daily Telegraph joins in....I can see where the RAF Sergeant is coming from, but I think her concerns may be misplaced...She seems to think that the rules against sexual abuse will be lifted, but to me, that is certainly not the case.

Women in the Armed Forces have been made to feel “unsafe” in the wake of the Defence Secretary’s comments over the diversity row engulfing the military.

Grant Shapps warned a “woke” and “extremist culture” had infiltrated the British Army after it was revealed the military was considering ways to relax checks to promote ethnic diversity among officers.
The Telegraph understands Mr Shapps spoke with Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, the Chief of the Defence Staff, on Monday to discuss how to conduct a review of ethnicity, diversity and inclusivity policies within the Ministry of Defence. However, serving female personnel and military charities have said Mr Shapps’s response was “dangerous”, while others said they felt they would have little choice but to leave the Armed Forces if such a hard approach was adopted.

One Sergeant serving with the RAF told The Telegraph: “I think it’s really dangerous that he thinks it OK to make such flippant remarks without quantifying them.

“The military had only just started to make progress in moving away from being an old boys club and it feels that as soon as that has happened people from that generation are now afraid to embrace the changes.”
She added: “I fear if his comments are left unchallenged, the retaliation from people within the ranks to prove and regain the masculine bravado that is associated with being a soldier will be devastating to the progress we have made in making the military safer and actually a place where women belong.

“All the good work that was done to challenge unacceptable behaviours will be not only lost, but there will be a spike in the culture we have worked so hard to eradicate.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...-grant-shapps/

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Tigger_Too

Open letter against Army’s inclusivity policy

Dear Secretary of State,
As retired senior officers of the Crown with experience of senior command, we feel compelled to write to you with a sense of sadness, incredulity and anger having viewed astonishing evidence of the depth and pervasiveness of the racist and intolerant "Diversity, Equality and Inclusivity" ideology being pushed within HM Armed Forces.

We see these facts, as so they are, as the perpetration of monumental self-harming and, as such, a real and present threat to national security that will give aid and comfort to the King's enemies. The sheer scale of what is reported is scarcely believable, and it cannot be ameliorated by small adjustments. It requires root and branch removal and we call upon you to order this, in pursuit of your primary duties to provide for the sure defence of our islands and citizens.

Nothing could be better calculated to destroy the esprit de corps of our armed forces than this poisonous farrago of nonsense or to deter from serving the Crown precisely the type of people most motivated and apt to our high calling. Ours is a tolerant country and this obsessive racialising of everything is both disgusting and reprehensible.

As you spelled out in your Lancaster House speech, correctly in our view, we live in 'pre-war' times; and Britain faces an ominous and darkening international scene, with Armed Forces that are underequipped, undermanned and underfunded, as we were back in the 1930’s.

Among the lunacy of pushing woke ideas around the use of "gender neutral" pronouns, or allowing male soldiers to wear make-up or flowing locks on parades to accentuate their feminine side, we pick out the wickedness of a policy to dilute security vetting in order to boost representation of ethnic minorities. With Islamism and other extremism rampant, this is nothing short of dangerous madness.

The cry for "diversity" has been utterly misunderstood. Within a military culture, what is to be sought above everything else is the delivery of "fighting power" in order to defeat the King's enemies, together with the greatest uniformity of excellence and diversity of opinion. Nothing else matters. The Memorial Gates on Constitution Hill are an object lesson of the unforced unity in all their diversity of Imperial and Commonwealth Armies in defence of freedom.

To remove Christianity from Acts of Remembrance is also a particular insult to our ancestors who fought and died to lead the world in ending slavery and twice in the last century to save our islands from conquest by extreme regimes. No one should need to be reminded that this is a welcoming, inclusive and basically Christian country. Our civic culture on 11th November is sacred, Christian, tolerant and inclusive on our terms.

The Russians, Iranians and Chinese will be observing our descent into self-hatred and obsessing over diversity and inclusion with glee. These intolerable policies are forcing the British Armed Forces into moral disarmament and it cannot stand.

We call on you as Secretary of State for Defence immediately to cleanse our military culture of these poisonous ideas and to order a complete reset back to our core values of patriotism and unity that for generations made our armed forces the envy of the world. To preserve and deepen military culture, discipline and efficiency, the Ministry of Defence should be exempted from the Public Sector Equality Duty as specified in the Equality Act 2010.

We are not civil servants but fighting forces.

Yours,

Major General Julian Thompson CB OBE

Lieutenant General Sir Henry Beverly KCB OBE

Brigadier David Chaundler OBE

Major General Tim Cross CBE

Lieutenant General Sir James Dutton KCB CBE

Major General Malcolm Hunt OBE

Colonel Richard Kemp CBE

Rear Admiral Roger Lane-Nott CB

Lieutenant General Sir Hew Pike KCB DSO MBE

Lieutenant General Jonathon Riley DSO MC

Colonel Ewen Southby-Tailyour OBE

Major General Nick Vaux CB DSO

I suggest that all the signatories of the above letter give a copy to random 20 year olds ask them what they think. I don’t think they are going to like the answer. All of these people had their time in the service, I think they need to let go. In any case here is a thought experiment. Would they want their children to experience what they experienced when they joined the military. Not what it is now but what it was when they were 18,19 year old recruits, because that is essentially what they are asking for.

[Asturias56]

"No one should need to be reminded that this is a ............ basically Christian country."

Shows just how out of touch these guys are....................

National census figures from 2021 indicate 46.2 percent of the population in England and Wales are Christian. Of the remaining population, 6.5 percent identify as Muslim; 1.7 percent as Hindu; 0.9 percent as Sikh; 0.5 percent as Jewish; and 0.5 as Buddhist. 37.2 % are No Religion - and that's up 12% in 10 years

And don't bother to look at how many "Christians" are practising.

[jolihokistix]

[snapper41]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

"No one should need to be reminded that this is a ............ basically Christian country."

Shows just how out of touch these guys are....................

National census figures from 2021 indicate 46.2 percent of the population in England and Wales are Christian. Of the remaining population, 6.5 percent identify as Muslim; 1.7 percent as Hindu; 0.9 percent as Sikh; 0.5 percent as Jewish; and 0.5 as Buddhist. 37.2 % are No Religion - and that's up 12% in 10 years

And don't bother to look at how many "Christians" are practising.

So Christianity is still the largest group then. Those ‘out of touch guys’ were right after all…

[jolihokistix]

When I were a lad, it was said that Norwich boasted 52 churches, one for every week of the year, oh, and 365 pubs.
Not sure how Norwich might fare today, though!

[langleybaston]

Originally Posted by snapper41

So Christianity is still the largest group then. Those ‘out of touch guys’ were right after all…

Here goes!
I am a practising Christian.
I was RAF Churchwarden at JHQ and at times in UK since.
Also a bell ringer.
Surely the Christian ethos still motivates and guides the native population of this land?
Being "good" is a bedrock, it is not confined to Christianity but it permeates life as we live it.
And the Archbish of Canterbury is not on my Christmas card list.
Please respect.

[bugged on the right]

I joined the armed forces as an 18 year old, BPF, can't remember any of it being remotely traumatic. I knew that after the initial heavy duty indoctrination had finished things would dramatically change. They did and things just went better. I would far prefer my children to join the outfit I joined and not today's aimless self loathing mess. As for asking 20 year olds their opinion, you must be joking. They want to spend their days on social media and need tick tock advice for everything including what sex they will be today. I didn't think it would be long before someone pointed out that these senior officers were too old but I would far prefer to be defended by one of them rather than some politically appointed, politically correct sycophant metrosexual REMF.

[Jacko3]

But it is. You are confusing the equality offered in opportunity, and the enforced equality being mandated in outcome regardless of anything else.

Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever

I would suggest that you are also guilty of "Post hoc ergo propter hoc". You have made the explicit connection between different standards being applied automatically means a lesser standard is being applied. You have to start with the question of what is the standard and why were the various criteria chosen. My personal experience in the military was a lot of the standards were there because they had always been there or a product of the attitude that new entrants "had to do them because I did". Forget the human rights component of going after BAME applicants, the reality is that the number of young white males in all Western Societies is dropping rapidly. The current Military population is underrepresented by individuals who are BAME. So does that mean that if you are BAME you are probably not good enough for military service or the military has not made an effort to draw from the entire population ? Recruiting from the entire population is quickly becoming non optional, especially if you want to grow the military in light of an increasingly perilous world security situation.

I am totally against quota's but I am 100% in favour of inclusive recruiting and that means making sure the recruiting and vetting standards reflect legitimate requirements not just legacy practices. This also means that increased risks may have to be taken. One of my officers on my last ship was a very petit female. She kept on failing the PT test and the system was working to release her. I pushed back strongly because she was an excellent ships officer, one of the best Junior officers I have ever commanded. I was challenged with the comment well supposed the bridge is hit and on fire with everyone else killed could she drag your unconscious body out ? I said I honestly don't think so but I am OK with that based on all the other strengths that she brings to the table and therefore I am comfortable with the risk. Like it or not I think that commanders will have to get used to balancing the risk v reward if they want effective numbers.

I saw a picture of one of the Ukrainian army computer geeks. He was very pudgy and had a lot of tattoo's and sure didn't fit the military ideal for body type, but he brought a skill set that created kinetic effects that you are not going to get any other way. I am pretty sure he wasn't going to get sent home because he couldn't do 15 push ups.

Finally with respect to the Anti Woke Russian Army. Yes they are undoubtedly "Anti Woke" but that is expressed in a master race mindset. That is one reason why they have no problem with the large scale slaughter of the lesser humans from prisons and the far reaches of the Russia. This is the dark side of the calls against a woke conspiracy diminishing the armed forces.

Finally my comments on this post are not meant to imply intolerance by everyone with reservations on the current policy changes , but there is no doubt in my mind there is a racist, bigoted, misogynist subset of the "anti- woke" brigade. This has the potential to damage the institutions in a very unfortunate way.

[Haraka]

Anybody else suspicious of the motivation behind the detailed personal details required on application for a 'Veterans' Card?
A possible provisional initial "Call up " Survey comes to mind.
Noting that those most difficult to grab i.e. "Överseas" are excluded (for the present.)
So that's me out!

[ORAC]

You Tube

[TURIN]

Originally Posted by bugged on the right

I joined the armed forces as an 18 year old, BPF, can't remember any of it being remotely traumatic. I knew that after the initial heavy duty indoctrination had finished things would dramatically change. They did and things just went better. I would far prefer my children to join the outfit I joined and not today's aimless self loathing mess. As for asking 20 year olds their opinion, you must be joking. They want to spend their days on social media and need tick tock advice for everything including what sex they will be today. I didn't think it would be long before someone pointed out that these senior officers were too old but I would far prefer to be defended by one of them rather than some politically appointed, politically correct sycophant metrosexual REMF.

And there it is. The hate personified in one post, the very reason why the armed forces (and every other old school tie institution) needs to implement change.
Millions died in the trenches during WW1 because old people thought they knew better. That went well.
If my own 20 year old is anything to go by I'm confident we're in safe hands. If yours are as bad as you say, that's on you. The problems of today are not the fault of this generation.

[bugged on the right]

Your 20 year old may be an anomaly Turin. I doubt the rest of them are able or willing. If you are confident you are in safe hands well good for you. I'm not at all confident in any of the armed forces. The generals are right. And I never said my children are bad. You have invented that, my children are mid 30s and 41. The twenty year olds I refer to are contemporary. As for ww1, you appear to be an expert on everything, how would you resolve that? How would you resolve Ukraine? You may have some answers, would you have the balls?

[snapper41]

Originally Posted by langleybaston

Here goes!
I am a practising Christian.
I was RAF Churchwarden at JHQ and at times in UK since.
Also a bell ringer.
Surely the Christian ethos still motivates and guides the native population of this land?
Being "good" is a bedrock, it is not confined to Christianity but it permeates life as we live it.
And the Archbish of Canterbury is not on my Christmas card list.
Please respect.

I do respect - I was referring to the previous poster’s weak grasp of what a ‘majority’ is.