Saudi Hawks update sign of the times for RAFAT
Maybe
BV
I think your understanding is lacking.
The Battle and Blenheim had only flown 3 and 4 years before. And were revolutionary at the time.
Yes they were very vulnerable but that was much more a reflection of poor usage and lack of understanding how vulnerable day bombers would be. I think you are confusing not fit for purpose and obsolete. Now if we had fielded Heyfords and Hinds they would have been obsolete !
THe RAFAT also fly an obsolete aeroplane!
The Battle and Blenheim had only flown 3 and 4 years before. And were revolutionary at the time.
Yes they were very vulnerable but that was much more a reflection of poor usage and lack of understanding how vulnerable day bombers would be. I think you are confusing not fit for purpose and obsolete. Now if we had fielded Heyfords and Hinds they would have been obsolete !
THe RAFAT also fly an obsolete aeroplane!
RAF Bomber Command switched to night time bombing for the same reason until the Butt report demonstrated Bomber Command couldn't hit it's targets due to lack of bombing aids. Even our AA defences couldn't hit anything and were told by Churchill to "Keep firing for the morale of the people". The Battle of Britain was definitely a "Close run thing" having only recently being upgraded with Spitfires all be it with fixed props.
If this is not an indication of being unprepared and only just rising to the challenge at the last moment I don't know what is?
Today is no different.
The Battle of Britain was definitely a "Close run thing" having only recently being upgraded with Spitfires all be it with fixed props.
If this is not an indication of being unprepared and only just rising to the challenge at the last moment I don't know what is?
Today is no different.
If this is not an indication of being unprepared and only just rising to the challenge at the last moment I don't know what is?
Today is no different.
But that is for another day. Back to the Hawk.
I may be wrong but my understanding of the IAF Hawks were that the first batch were built in the UK and then ferried whilst the remainder were machined in the UK and assembled in India. I am not aware of Hawks being built from scratch in India but, as I said, I may be wrong.
BV
BV
I respect of the BoB lets not forget that the Hawk has in its antecedence the Hurricane. which was responsibly for 55% of kills, predominantly the bombers that caused the real threat.
And in respect of the Fairey Battle:
I flew the Battle with 106 Squadron and didn't think much of it. It was very underpowered and built like a tank. One of the pilots on the squadron I remember crashed into a wood and despite writing the aircraft* off he survived the ordeal with cuts and bruises.
Wg Cdr T C Murray DSO, DFC* RAF (rtd) quoted in Suitcases, Vultures and Spies.
Wg Cdr T C Murray DSO, DFC* RAF (rtd) quoted in Suitcases, Vultures and Spies.
106 converted to the Battle from the Hind in July 1938, it then started converting to the Hampden the following May. The Battle was built to P,27/32 for a 1000 lb/1000 mile/200 mph light bomber - the requirement that resulted in the Gloster Gauntlet was issued the following year. THe 300 mph fighter wasn't a factor.
Here endeth the lesson...
so the Tornado GR1 being withdrawn from low level attacks in GW1 was a sign of being unprepared and the Tornado being obsolete? or was there another reason maybe?
Thread Starter
FB
PS I now read on UK Defence Journal, that the government is looking to re-commit to the full order of 138 F-35s.
Last edited by Finningley Boy; 6th Feb 2024 at 19:07. Reason: update
I hope they can find enough drivers for 138 airframes.
Thread Starter
Ditto, it would be a sad indictment of the UK if we simply couldn't. A more realistic recruitment drive perhaps when I left the RAF in 1990, we had more than 300 Tonka drivers, and still a shed load of Phantom, Buccaneer, Jaguar and Harrier ones as well. Oh and three or four times as many Nimrod crews, compared to the number of Poseidon crews now. Its the mindset which needs to change, hopefully that's all, if it is education that is the are of concern, then we do have a problem.
FB
FB
Perhaps it's time for the RAF to cut the educational qualifications and concentrate on finding people from a wider pool?
The RAF has (had?) a good reputation for training it's people to be professionals, perhaps it's time to repair the foundations before worrying about the roof?
The RAF has (had?) a good reputation for training it's people to be professionals, perhaps it's time to repair the foundations before worrying about the roof?
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The following 2 users liked this post by Jobza Guddun:
Perhaps it's time for the RAF to cut the educational qualifications and concentrate on finding people from a wider pool?
The RAF has (had?) a good reputation for training it's people to be professionals, perhaps it's time to repair the foundations before worrying about the roof?
The RAF has (had?) a good reputation for training it's people to be professionals, perhaps it's time to repair the foundations before worrying about the roof?
To dive into the numbers a little:
Between 75 and 80% of A-levels taken score C and above and 89% of students sit 2 or more A-levels (most - 70% take 3 or more) Source gov.uk Around 240,000 students take A-levels each year in England (not counting Wales, Scotland or NI). Source - BBC.
So you're looking at a recruiting pool of probably 250k people each year out of a pool of about 700k between England/Wales (650k births per year) Scotland (40k) and NI (20k).
I mean, they're only asking for 2 A-levels at C or above, and it's been like that for around 3 decades I think?
To dive into the numbers a little:
Between 75 and 80% of A-levels taken score C and above and 89% of students sit 2 or more A-levels (most - 70% take 3 or more) Source gov.uk Around 240,000 students take A-levels each year in England (not counting Wales, Scotland or NI). Source - BBC.
So you're looking at a recruiting pool of probably 250k people each year out of a pool of about 700k between England/Wales (650k births per year) Scotland (40k) and NI (20k).
To dive into the numbers a little:
Between 75 and 80% of A-levels taken score C and above and 89% of students sit 2 or more A-levels (most - 70% take 3 or more) Source gov.uk Around 240,000 students take A-levels each year in England (not counting Wales, Scotland or NI). Source - BBC.
So you're looking at a recruiting pool of probably 250k people each year out of a pool of about 700k between England/Wales (650k births per year) Scotland (40k) and NI (20k).
Intellectual capacity, reasoning, problem solving, leadership and many other attributes can all be evaluated without the need for 2 A levels to conduct a quick filter.
As I said the RAF should train it's people to be who and what they need, and to do that it should cast its net further and wider.
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[QUOTE=pba_target;11594822]I mean, they're only asking for 2 A-levels at C or above, and it's been like that for around 3 decades I think?
To dive into the numbers a little:
Between 75 and 80% of A-levels taken score C and above and 89% of students sit 2 or more A-levels (most - 70% take 3 or more) Source gov.uk Around 240,000 students take A-levels each year in England (not counting Wales, Scotland or NI). Source - BBC.
in the eighties it was 5 o levels passes including maths and english.
To dive into the numbers a little:
Between 75 and 80% of A-levels taken score C and above and 89% of students sit 2 or more A-levels (most - 70% take 3 or more) Source gov.uk Around 240,000 students take A-levels each year in England (not counting Wales, Scotland or NI). Source - BBC.
in the eighties it was 5 o levels passes including maths and english.
Yes, but that was O-levels, not GCSE.
With today's grade inflation, and teaching to the exam, sorry I mean better students, anyone who got 5 O-levels in the 1980s would achieve 2 A-levels at grade C today.
With today's grade inflation, and teaching to the exam, sorry I mean better students, anyone who got 5 O-levels in the 1980s would achieve 2 A-levels at grade C today.
I have two questions.
1. Why has a thread about Hawks in Saudi been completely hijacked by conversation about GCSEs?
2. Why does everyone think that the education system should stay unchanged for 40+ years? Why would the GCSEs of today be exactly the same as the GCSEs of the 1980s or earlier?
For information, my eldest son is currently in year 10. The maths that I see him doing is every bit as hard as some stuff I did at A Level in the early to mid 90s.
Maybe everyone should stop believing what they want to believe and what they read in the Daily Mail and trust that the kids of today are every bit as smart as the kids of yesteryear. But maybe in different ways. Well that’s good right? Because the world has changed anyway. Requirements have changed. Challenges have changed.
Anyway, good luck to the Saudi Hawks with their newer jets. It would seem their future is safe for a while yet.
BV
2. Why does everyone think that the education system should stay unchanged for 40+ years? Why would the GCSEs of today be exactly the same as the GCSEs of the 1980s or earlier?
For information, my eldest son is currently in year 10. The maths that I see him doing is every bit as hard as some stuff I did at A Level in the early to mid 90s.
Maybe everyone should stop believing what they want to believe and what they read in the Daily Mail and trust that the kids of today are every bit as smart as the kids of yesteryear. But maybe in different ways. Well that’s good right? Because the world has changed anyway. Requirements have changed. Challenges have changed.
Anyway, good luck to the Saudi Hawks with their newer jets. It would seem their future is safe for a while yet.
BV
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Two answers and a question
BV,
Two replies:
1. ALL threads on pprune drift, often within 4 comments! This thread has already discussed preparations for the Batlle of Britain, the Fairey Battle, RAF pilots numbers, the Peace Dividend. To say it has been "completely hijacked" by a conversation about GCSEs is a gross exaggeration!
2. I don't read the Daily Mail, and I really don't care how hard your son's maths is. The fact that 10% of A-levels achieved an A grade in 1980, and today it's around 25% is a documented fact, not a Daily Mail scare story:
https://www.alansmithers.com/reports/AL2014.pdf
Then there's the percentage of degrees now being awarded a 1st class honours, approaching 40% in some universities.
Once again I would ask the question, are kids so much cleverer now? (I never said they weren't AS clever!). If the kids are as clever today as they were in the 80s, then the exams are easier to pass (for whatever reason), which comes back to my point that 5 O levels in 1980 would equate to 2 grade C A levels today.
While I'm not a teacher myself, I know many people who work/worked in education, including my wife and my best friend from school days who became head of Science at a secondary school (or whatever they're called these days).
There's a difference between being aware/informed and buying into the conspiracy theories.
Anyway, back to the thread on Hawks....
Two replies:
1. ALL threads on pprune drift, often within 4 comments! This thread has already discussed preparations for the Batlle of Britain, the Fairey Battle, RAF pilots numbers, the Peace Dividend. To say it has been "completely hijacked" by a conversation about GCSEs is a gross exaggeration!
2. I don't read the Daily Mail, and I really don't care how hard your son's maths is. The fact that 10% of A-levels achieved an A grade in 1980, and today it's around 25% is a documented fact, not a Daily Mail scare story:
https://www.alansmithers.com/reports/AL2014.pdf
Then there's the percentage of degrees now being awarded a 1st class honours, approaching 40% in some universities.
Once again I would ask the question, are kids so much cleverer now? (I never said they weren't AS clever!). If the kids are as clever today as they were in the 80s, then the exams are easier to pass (for whatever reason), which comes back to my point that 5 O levels in 1980 would equate to 2 grade C A levels today.
While I'm not a teacher myself, I know many people who work/worked in education, including my wife and my best friend from school days who became head of Science at a secondary school (or whatever they're called these days).
There's a difference between being aware/informed and buying into the conspiracy theories.
Anyway, back to the thread on Hawks....
Last edited by Biggus; 12th Feb 2024 at 09:20.
I hope they can find enough drivers for 138 airframes.
Then there's the percentage of degrees now being awarded a 1st class honours, approaching 40% in some universities.
Once again I would ask the question, are kids so much cleverer now? (I never said they weren't AS clever!). If the kids are as clever today as they were in the 80s, then the exams are easier to pass (for whatever reason), which comes back to my point that 5 O levels in 1980 would equate to 2 grade C A levels today
Once again I would ask the question, are kids so much cleverer now? (I never said they weren't AS clever!). If the kids are as clever today as they were in the 80s, then the exams are easier to pass (for whatever reason), which comes back to my point that 5 O levels in 1980 would equate to 2 grade C A levels today
For information, my eldest son is currently in year 10. The maths that I see him doing is every bit as hard as some stuff I did at A Level in the early to mid 90s.