DEFCOC
Thread Starter
DEFCOC
This is a question principally addressed to ORAC, as I believe she is a former fighter-controller, and was stationed at Neatishead.
The question arises,because over the New Year period,I was staying with some friends in Lincoln,and while there,their son and his wife came over for dinner.The son,Chris is a current RAF pilot stationed at Waddington,and I have known him ever since he was born.
Anyway, after dinner,we eventually started 'talking shop', and I was trying to explain to Chris the ATC system as was practiced in the 1980s when I was at Eastern Radar (civil),and in particular, the short -lived DEFCOC procedure, which was in place when I first arrived in March 1982.The introduction of this procedure had been universally opposed by all the civilian controllers,and possibly some of the military ones too,nevertheless it was imposed on us.
At the time,we essentially had just a primary radar display,though a single SSR return could be interrogated by positioning a small circle controlled by a joystick,over the blip,and as the timebase swept through,the SSR code and mode C (Flight Level) would be displayed briefly on a side console.This was not too bad when using our main,on-site,T82 radar,which turned at 8 RPM,but when interrogating targets at long range,we relied on a display 'piped in' from the T84 or T85 radars at Neatishead,which rotated at only 4 RPM,so if you missed the target with the cursor,you had to wait a full 15 seconds before you could read the squawk and height display.,
Anyhow,under the rules,we were obliged to 'tell into DEFCOC' the details of any traffic as it entered our sector.This entailed ringing Neatishead on a dedicated phone line and speaking to an Eastern Radar Military controller,who was detached to Neatishead for a week at a time,and give the position of the blip in question,its callsign,Flight Level,or cleared level if it was climbing or descending,and its intended route.Thus for example,you might say 'at BLUFIR (the fix on Airway B! at the Dutch/UK FIR boundary) is KLM 123,climbing out of FL240 for FL310,B13'.The last bit of information indicating that the traffic would track along AWY BI/UB1 as far as Dogger,then turn right towards NEW VOR.on UB13.
This I'm sure sounds very convoluted and laborious,and it was.BUT,the problem was that once this information was passed to Neatishead,we weren't supposed to change any of the parameters without prior approval from Neatishead,and they weren't always very prompt in answering the phone,and often we were confronted with for example an inbound to Amsterdam,rapidly approaching the FIR boundary,calling for descent,as he had to be below FL290 at that point.In the end,we were often placed in a position where we had to have a good lookout for marauding fighters in the area,and giving descent clearance without approval.Thankfully,the inherent problems in this procedure were fairly soon appreciated,and was abolished after a few months.
I hadn't thought about this for moire than 40 years,until now,and I just wondered if ORAC,or any other fighter-controller on here has any view on the situation from their end?
Thanks.
The question arises,because over the New Year period,I was staying with some friends in Lincoln,and while there,their son and his wife came over for dinner.The son,Chris is a current RAF pilot stationed at Waddington,and I have known him ever since he was born.
Anyway, after dinner,we eventually started 'talking shop', and I was trying to explain to Chris the ATC system as was practiced in the 1980s when I was at Eastern Radar (civil),and in particular, the short -lived DEFCOC procedure, which was in place when I first arrived in March 1982.The introduction of this procedure had been universally opposed by all the civilian controllers,and possibly some of the military ones too,nevertheless it was imposed on us.
At the time,we essentially had just a primary radar display,though a single SSR return could be interrogated by positioning a small circle controlled by a joystick,over the blip,and as the timebase swept through,the SSR code and mode C (Flight Level) would be displayed briefly on a side console.This was not too bad when using our main,on-site,T82 radar,which turned at 8 RPM,but when interrogating targets at long range,we relied on a display 'piped in' from the T84 or T85 radars at Neatishead,which rotated at only 4 RPM,so if you missed the target with the cursor,you had to wait a full 15 seconds before you could read the squawk and height display.,
Anyhow,under the rules,we were obliged to 'tell into DEFCOC' the details of any traffic as it entered our sector.This entailed ringing Neatishead on a dedicated phone line and speaking to an Eastern Radar Military controller,who was detached to Neatishead for a week at a time,and give the position of the blip in question,its callsign,Flight Level,or cleared level if it was climbing or descending,and its intended route.Thus for example,you might say 'at BLUFIR (the fix on Airway B! at the Dutch/UK FIR boundary) is KLM 123,climbing out of FL240 for FL310,B13'.The last bit of information indicating that the traffic would track along AWY BI/UB1 as far as Dogger,then turn right towards NEW VOR.on UB13.
This I'm sure sounds very convoluted and laborious,and it was.BUT,the problem was that once this information was passed to Neatishead,we weren't supposed to change any of the parameters without prior approval from Neatishead,and they weren't always very prompt in answering the phone,and often we were confronted with for example an inbound to Amsterdam,rapidly approaching the FIR boundary,calling for descent,as he had to be below FL290 at that point.In the end,we were often placed in a position where we had to have a good lookout for marauding fighters in the area,and giving descent clearance without approval.Thankfully,the inherent problems in this procedure were fairly soon appreciated,and was abolished after a few months.
I hadn't thought about this for moire than 40 years,until now,and I just wondered if ORAC,or any other fighter-controller on here has any view on the situation from their end?
Thanks.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I wasn’t at Neatishead at the time, (left in 76 for Cyprus and next tour there wasn’t till 91), so can’t help much - sorry.
I was at Staxton Wold 83-85 with almost all we controlled was the BK Lightnings, but almost all our work was north of the Blueway coordinating with Eastern and LATCC direct.
(Thankfully the Lightning didn’t have Mode C, but I’ll go no further than that…)
I was at Staxton Wold 83-85 with almost all we controlled was the BK Lightnings, but almost all our work was north of the Blueway coordinating with Eastern and LATCC direct.
(Thankfully the Lightning didn’t have Mode C, but I’ll go no further than that…)
Thread Starter
Ah yes,I well remember lightnings had no mode C.Not long after I arrived at watton,and while still U/T,I had a Speedbird BAC 1-ll,come on frequency,having departed Manchester,and was climbing to the agreed level,FL230.He was approaching OTR VOR,and the pilots first words were "London,good morning,Speedbird blah blah blah,we've just had a Lightning cross our bow!". My mentor immediately took the R/T,and asked the captain if he wished to file an Airmiss.He declined,but my mentor,DG,said he would investigate the matter,and asked for the captain's name,to which he replied "Bull...as in male cow".Don then, via the Eastern Mil supervisor,made contact with Binbrook,and later got an apology from the pilot,who admitted that he had 'bust his level'.This was relayed to Captain Bull on the return trip,and that was the end of the matter.
Sounds similar to the system used by Northern (which of course had similar displays to those at Eastern) ; they had an ATCO ie not FiCon detached to Patrington (T80 - another slow turner) and the ATCO at Patrington would ring Northern to advise of traffic .
I seem to recall that Northern/Eastern didn't actually work civil traffic below FL250 in those days (later adjusted to FL245) so at FL230, the 1-11 should have been under the control of PATCC/PATCRU not Northern or Eastern.
I seem to recall that Northern/Eastern didn't actually work civil traffic below FL250 in those days (later adjusted to FL245) so at FL230, the 1-11 should have been under the control of PATCC/PATCRU not Northern or Eastern.
My recollection of DEFCOC is different. The average sortie, with F4's and Lightnings would use from SL up to 45K+. We did not have designated airspace and so had to share with other Mil and Civil traffic (OAT/GAT). This involved the controller usually having to initiate coordination with civil/mil agencies to agree on separation (coordination). This added to an already high workload (especially with Lightnings) and so a Defence Coordination Cell (DEFCOC) was set up. This was a controller who identified potential conflicting traffic and initiated, and agreed, coordination on behalf of all Neatishead Mil AD traffic (DAT). External agencies who then wanted to change the agreement would have to phone DEFCOC and renegotiate. Regarding the Amsterdam flight, we eventually took control of that to make things easier. That got us cheap flights and the chance to join GATCO!!!
It was eventually abolished as kit improved. A mistake in my opinion and controllers now have to make their own agreements (may be out of date now). This means a poor CivATCO may well get numerous calls about the same track, which they find irritating. Introduction of MDAs has made a big difference and there is no doubt that putting boundaries between OAT/GAT and DAT is by far the best for all concerned.
Just my thoughts and time/age may have distorted some recollections.
It was eventually abolished as kit improved. A mistake in my opinion and controllers now have to make their own agreements (may be out of date now). This means a poor CivATCO may well get numerous calls about the same track, which they find irritating. Introduction of MDAs has made a big difference and there is no doubt that putting boundaries between OAT/GAT and DAT is by far the best for all concerned.
Just my thoughts and time/age may have distorted some recollections.
Thread Starter
In my timeat Eastern,from 1982 until closure in 1988,departures from Manchester came from the Pole-Hill sector climbing to FL230 on a standing agreement,and were released for further climb subject to known traffic,this continued when replaced by the NORTH SEA sector at LATCC. We had only one Airway in the sector,B1,which ran from WAL-OTR-Dogger(later renamed DOGGA)-BLUBELL(later BEENO-BLUFIR(later BLUFA,on the FIR boundary.The base of B1 was FL75,but FLs140,150 and 160 were blocked from ,I think 8W of OTR to allow crossing by possibly non-squawking air-defence traffic.Later the FL140 block was removed This posed problems for the UK F27s into Humberside which invariably wanted to descend well E of OTR.Personally,I usually cleared them to leave CAS by descent,to report passing FL75,Radar Advisory between FL160 and FL140.All other routes were UARs only,and thus only above FL145 -UA37,UR4,UB1,UB13,UB24 and UB24W.
The blocked levels on B1 allowed AD traffic to transit north/south without the need for coordination. Squawking/non squawking not an issue. It was known as the Air Defence Window. Still there today as far as I know.
asked for the captain's name,to which he replied "Bull...as in male cow
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