Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Where do RAF pilots come from now?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Where do RAF pilots come from now?

Old 30th Nov 2023, 10:50
  #41 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,621
Received 496 Likes on 263 Posts
Originally Posted by charliegolf
The Chippies were at Swinditz in August 79 when I was square bashing; so pretty soon after your time at Linton Shy. (Does that mean you broke the system?)

CG
Probably - they sent me off to instruct on the Bulldog EFTS at Topcliffe as a punishment!
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 11:01
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 123
Received 33 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by NutLoose
Funny thing when I completed my training and we all put down our preferred choice of postings, there was only two of us that chose Odiham , one was a Irish lad who had visions of being able to go home from Aldergrove and myself, I was the only one that got it.

Those days Odiham was seen as a retirement halfway house full of old codgers awaiting their release date, the accommodation hadn’t faired well and still bore the faded wartime camouflage on the brickwork. Such was the shortage of buildings they had to convert the morgue into a laundrette as prior to that it was wash your clothes in a sink etc.

the nearest town of any interest for a young lad to spend their money, and I say that while biting my tongue was Basingstoke, a place so dire and bereft of entertainment that it made Aldershot look good.

As for the female species at Odiham, until the arrival of my mate on Chinooks and his wife who served in SHQ, I seem to remember a single WRAF Officer.

The proximity from London had both its advantages and disadvantages, one being whenever going on leave you invariably ended up hauling your bags across London between stations.
What! You mean Amazingstoke is worse than Aldersh1t? Its a close run contest though having seen both first hand.
SimonPaddo is online now  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 13:40
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,199
Received 10 Likes on 7 Posts
Creamies

Originally Posted by Gordomac
Lastly, what on earth was the "Creamer" programme all about ? Pass OASC, Pass EFT and, was it there that one was so talented that you were "creamed" to become an Instructor yourself with, about 100 hrs total under your belt.
Gordomac,

I won’t try and defend the policy, primarily because I am unsure what its underlying purpose was; but I will defend those who found themselves caught up in it. First of all, they had quite a bit more flying experience than you suggest. Probably 30 hours Primary Training on the Chipmunk, 150 hours on the Jet Provost, ~100 hours Gnat or Varsity followed by about the same at CFS. Add a few more trips with Standards when they arrived at their first unit and they probably had just shy of 400 hours before coming into contact with their first student. Their flying had been intensive and covered a very wide spread of activity and they had demonstrated that they had better than average ability and usually displayed a greater degree of maturity than some of their peers.

None of those I encountered were volunteers, they would all have rather been doing something else, however they all got on with the job and did it well. In fact, I would go so far as to say that some were probably better at imparting knowledge and technique than a few of the ex DFGA Hunter mates that were around. I’m sure we’ve all met one! Thinking back to the creamies I encountered, almost without exception they went on greater things, either professionally or in career terms. I recall a young Fg Off John Thorpe as one example. Others followed a similar path and quite a few made Air Rank. I feel that they added a valuable dimension to the QFI cadre.

YS
Yellow Sun is online now  
Old 30th Nov 2023, 14:44
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In the State of Denial
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 171 Likes on 33 Posts
My experience of creamies was rather different. Having breezed through flying training themselves they pretty much all seemed to have the attitude ‘it’s easy, I can do it so why can’t you?’

Couple that with their being the same age or younger than their students and often ‘only’ being Flying Officers many had some substantial chips on their shoulders.

I preferred a QFI who had struggled a bit through training and therefore could empathise with his student.
Ken Scott is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by Ken Scott:
Old 30th Nov 2023, 14:52
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 670
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by beamer
Thanks for the replies chaps but no-one has actually answered the question……yet. Of course it was all different in ‘our day’ but what of now - is it still FJ until the system decides otherwise and how far into the training system do you have to go before multi or rotary becomes an option ?
Everyone is graded in Elementary Flying Training then streamed FJ/Multis/Rotary based on that grading and the need of the RAF?
Treble one is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 16:28
  #46 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,979
Received 85 Likes on 33 Posts
As far as I recall, ‘creamies’ were streamed off after Valley and after completion of the CFS course could be sent to the JP BFTS Units or on rare occasions back to the Hawk. I always felt that, skilled as they might be, they had a bit of a credibility issue as they had no front-line experience to pass on to their students.

Did anyone else have an Instructor at BFTS which they simply did not get on with at all ?
beamer is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 17:49
  #47 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,621
Received 496 Likes on 263 Posts
Originally Posted by beamer
As far as I recall, ‘creamies’ were streamed off after Valley and after completion of the CFS course could be sent to the JP BFTS Units or on rare occasions back to the Hawk. I always felt that, skilled as they might be, they had a bit of a credibility issue as they had no front-line experience to pass on to their students.

Did anyone else have an Instructor at BFTS which they simply did not get on with at all ?
Oh yes indeed. In fact there was one individual that no-one got on with. After a few trips and in my view, negative progress because I couldn’t stand the bloke, I reluctantly asked for a quiet word with the flight commander. I explained how his instructional technique seemed to revolve around regular personal insults and minor physical assault across the cockpit and asked for an instructor change. He threw up his hands in despair and said “Well, someone’s got to fly with him!”. I obviously was by no means the first.

I’d like to think that having flown with this individual, I did go on to become a rather more understanding and empathetic instructor. Others might disagree but I never called any of my students “You little $¥it”, or thumped them on the upper arm.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 18:50
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,366
Received 377 Likes on 215 Posts
I’d like to think that having flown with this individual, I did go on to become a rather more understanding and empathetic instructor. Others might disagree but I never called any of my students “You little $¥it”, or thumped them on the upper arm.
I can empathise - my instructor used to thump my helmet! However, the primary driver to improve was a sense of not wanting to disappoint him, and that was what generated the real progress. We were best friends for years until his sad, premature, death. Well, given his lifestyle, some might say he had a good innings!

he was definitely not a creamie though - Halton apprentice, Cpl, Commissioned, Vulcans, C130s
212man is online now  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 18:56
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Richard Burtonville, South Wales.
Posts: 2,347
Received 91 Likes on 52 Posts
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
Oh yes indeed. In fact there was one individual that no-one got on with. After a few trips and in my view, negative progress because I couldn’t stand the bloke, I reluctantly asked for a quiet word with the flight commander. I explained how his instructional technique seemed to revolve around regular personal insults and minor physical assault across the cockpit and asked for an instructor change. He threw up his hands in despair and said “Well, someone’s got to fly with him!”. I obviously was by no means the first.

I’d like to think that having flown with this individual, I did go on to become a rather more understanding and empathetic instructor. Others might disagree but I never called any of my students “You little $¥it”, or thumped them on the upper arm.
Looking back Shy, what do you feel the outcome of saying, "Touch me again and I'll break your arm." would have been?

CG
charliegolf is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 19:17
  #50 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,621
Received 496 Likes on 263 Posts
Another student on my course later told him something like that….they very nearly came to fisticuffs in the cockpit. The student later became an RAF Regiment officer…. ‘nuff said.
ShyTorque is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 1st Dec 2023, 19:31
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Alles Über
Posts: 382
Received 43 Likes on 18 Posts
What did the leadership do about this instructor?
trim it out is offline  
Old 1st Dec 2023, 19:45
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,366
Received 377 Likes on 215 Posts
Originally Posted by trim it out
What did the leadership do about this instructor?
Made him a Red Arrow….
212man is online now  
The following 2 users liked this post by 212man:
Old 1st Dec 2023, 19:50
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Alles Über
Posts: 382
Received 43 Likes on 18 Posts
Originally Posted by 212man
Made him a Red Arrow….
OK you got a laugh out of me for that one
trim it out is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 08:33
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Inverness
Posts: 79
Received 39 Likes on 12 Posts
"What did the leadership do about this instructor?"

I changed type in the early '90s. C130 student crews were constituted throughout the OCU. Our pilot QFI was a Scottish "poisonous dwarf" whose only method of communication was violent shouting and berating of both the students and his fellow instructional staff. As we were all miserable and underconfident trying to learn in a palpably angry environment we, collectively, didn't do well on our first crew check ride despite the student captain's and my previous flying experience.

We were all marched in one by one in front of OC 242 and were told we were going to be given one last chance and a reshuffle took place. The immediate change in professional ability and standards was seen by everyone, instructors and fellow students alike. EVERYONE knew who this character was and he was left to exert his unprofessional malevolence on a different crew with an outcome unknown to me.

Many years later when I was a sim instructor, and CRM [Crew Resource Management] was the dominant theme, aforementioned "pd" was in the box, I could see and hear how much effort he was putting in to being 'nice' and trying to utilise his crew as he should, but it wasn't his natural character and everyone was rightly suspicious of him. Again, the instructional environment was affected.

Age appeared to have mellowed him by the time he was on his last tour on a long distance fleet but he never really changed. As far as I could see, the leadership chose to ignore this character flaw over decades and the fact that he could fly was all that mattered, despite the evidence that the lack of CRM left crew morale low in what today would be called a Toxic Environment.

Perhaps this broad failure of leadership over the years to deal with such, when victims were blamed and suppressed, is why allegations of toxic management activity in higher levels of the RAF and high profile representatives finds its way into the Press?
Nil_Drift is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by Nil_Drift:
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 09:44
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Alles Über
Posts: 382
Received 43 Likes on 18 Posts
Originally Posted by Nil_Drift
"What did the leadership do about this instructor?"

I changed type in the early '90s. C130 student crews were constituted throughout the OCU. Our pilot QFI was a Scottish "poisonous dwarf" whose only method of communication was violent shouting and berating of both the students and his fellow instructional staff. As we were all miserable and underconfident trying to learn in a palpably angry environment we, collectively, didn't do well on our first crew check ride despite the student captain's and my previous flying experience.

We were all marched in one by one in front of OC 242 and were told we were going to be given one last chance and a reshuffle took place. The immediate change in professional ability and standards was seen by everyone, instructors and fellow students alike. EVERYONE knew who this character was and he was left to exert his unprofessional malevolence on a different crew with an outcome unknown to me.

Many years later when I was a sim instructor, and CRM [Crew Resource Management] was the dominant theme, aforementioned "pd" was in the box, I could see and hear how much effort he was putting in to being 'nice' and trying to utilise his crew as he should, but it wasn't his natural character and everyone was rightly suspicious of him. Again, the instructional environment was affected.

Age appeared to have mellowed him by the time he was on his last tour on a long distance fleet but he never really changed. As far as I could see, the leadership chose to ignore this character flaw over decades and the fact that he could fly was all that mattered, despite the evidence that the lack of CRM left crew morale low in what today would be called a Toxic Environment.

Perhaps this broad failure of leadership over the years to deal with such, when victims were blamed and suppressed, is why allegations of toxic management activity in higher levels of the RAF and high profile representatives finds its way into the Press?
This has been my experience of these sort of people too. The military spins a good leadership dit, usually with a nice mnemonic to go with it but the hangar floor reality and the lived experience can be far different. The system is not designed in favour of calling it out either. People either just wait until the problem is posted out, or they themselves are posted.
trim it out is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 09:59
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,853
Received 154 Likes on 71 Posts
During my Flying Grading at BRNC, I had the misfortune to be assigned to "L Jnr", whose father ran the grading outfit at Roborough. L Jnr was a shouty, sweary individual who started the second you started to climb into his Tiger Moth ..."Get a bloody move on, we haven't got all day". Despite having a PPL, he drained my confidence to the point when I dreaded seeing his aircraft, with the 3 Dayglo stripes on the cowling, taxying in.

Anyway, I failed ... and left the RN. However, my father was sufficiently concerned about the processes that he took up the matter with our local MP, and eventually received an apology from Captain BRNC "for a hasty decision". And I did hear later that L Jnr was removed from his instructional post. So it could happen!
MPN11 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 17:21
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: A very long way North
Posts: 476
Received 18 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by beamer
As far as I recall, ‘creamies’ were streamed off after Valley and after completion of the CFS course could be sent to the JP BFTS Units or on rare occasions back to the Hawk. I always felt that, skilled as they might be, they had a bit of a credibility issue as they had no front-line experience to pass on to their students.

Did anyone else have an Instructor at BFTS which they simply did not get on with at all ?
We had 3 creamies on our BFTS Sqn early 90’s. One was just a superb instructor and I looked forward to flying with him. The second was also a good instructor, but could be a bit impatient if it wasn’t going well. The third’s instructional technique just seemed to consist of screaming at the student from the back (Tucano) followed by brief pauses of quiet where he would apologise, “I just want you to do well!”, before launching off into another screaming fit. Fortunately I was spared #3, unlike many of my colleagues.
PlasticCabDriver is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 18:34
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: East Midlands
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Quote:

“Thinking back to the creamies I encountered, almost without exception they went on greater things, either professionally or in career terms. I recall a young Fg Off John Thorpe as one example. Others followed a similar path and quite a few made Air Rank.”

Yes indeed, including one young thruster at Valley who became the Chief of Chiefs and a Peer of the Realm. My recollection of him as a creamie from 50 yrs distance is not exactly fond but then again AFT was not my finest hour.

Johnny Head in Air is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2023, 21:26
  #59 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,979
Received 85 Likes on 33 Posts
Having spent some time at Lyneham, I cannot for the life of me remember a ‘Scottish poison dwarf’ on the OCU but then again I am getting very old !
beamer is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2023, 07:02
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Round and about
Age: 65
Posts: 27
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
George B?
steve757 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.