Was Navigator streaming a thing?
Thread Starter
Was Navigator streaming a thing?
Gents, indulge me if you will.
As an ex-RAF ground trade (avionics) I’m curious if Navigators were “streamed” in a similar fashion to pilots?
I would have thought (perhaps wrongly) that sitting in the boot of a Tornado, low level at night, would be somewhat more challenging than “trucking around” in a Hercules or sipping coffee and eating DCS on a Nimrod as a routine Nav.
After graduation were all Navs expected to be able to operate any aircraft type, with appropriate conversion courses and OCU etc, or was there a point in training where the decision was made that Bloggs was Fast Jet material and Simpkins was heading to multi-engine.
Idle curiosity is my only motivation in asking, not looking to start a bun fight.
As an ex-RAF ground trade (avionics) I’m curious if Navigators were “streamed” in a similar fashion to pilots?
I would have thought (perhaps wrongly) that sitting in the boot of a Tornado, low level at night, would be somewhat more challenging than “trucking around” in a Hercules or sipping coffee and eating DCS on a Nimrod as a routine Nav.
After graduation were all Navs expected to be able to operate any aircraft type, with appropriate conversion courses and OCU etc, or was there a point in training where the decision was made that Bloggs was Fast Jet material and Simpkins was heading to multi-engine.
Idle curiosity is my only motivation in asking, not looking to start a bun fight.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
Back in the 70s, Navs were streamed into Group 1 (fast Jet/radar) and Group 2 (Plotters who sat at a Nav table and guided the larger aircraft by drawing lines on a map). Streaming was after a basic plotting course and a low-level Jet Provost phase. Flying badge presented after the end of either Group training phase.
For what it's worth, the USN did something similar to what Wensleydale described, splitting the training pipelines after the initial course between the P-3, E-2, and Fast Jet (EA-6B, F-18G Growler, F-14, S-3) pipelines, depending on the years we are talking about.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 14th Nov 2023 at 01:08.
Thread Starter
Thanks Wensleydale for the prompt reply, I thought it likely that some kind of streaming would be carried out, just don’t remember it ever been talked about.
Thanks also to Lonewolf for info on the USN system. Similar goal, similar approach for most air arms I suppose.
Thanks also to Lonewolf for info on the USN system. Similar goal, similar approach for most air arms I suppose.
The following users liked this post:
When I went through as a student in 1973 there was no streaming. Everyone did the same course : Varsity (plotting) a few hours JP (low level visual Nav)/and Dominie (plotting faster, radar and a bit of low level). Depending on how you performed at each you were posted . The fast jet OCUs were, not surprisingly, unhappy with the standard of Nav input and started sending navs to the Tac Weapons Units (Hawk) pre OCU.
By the time I went back as an instructor (1989) There was a lot of streaming. After basic Dominies they were streamed ME or FJ. FJ students did Low level Dominies then basic JP. Then further Streamed LL or Air Defence for a dedicated advanced JP course.
I believe the ME students were also streamed for maritime or transport leading to dedicated sorties for those skills.
By the time I went back as an instructor (1989) There was a lot of streaming. After basic Dominies they were streamed ME or FJ. FJ students did Low level Dominies then basic JP. Then further Streamed LL or Air Defence for a dedicated advanced JP course.
I believe the ME students were also streamed for maritime or transport leading to dedicated sorties for those skills.
By the time I went back as an instructor (1989) There was a lot of streaming. After basic Dominies they were streamed ME or FJ. FJ students did Low level Dominies then basic JP. Then further Streamed LL or Air Defence for a dedicated advanced JP course.
The following users liked this post:
Streaming was a thing when I went through in 87 and as an instructor 92-5.
Common Bulldog Phase (air experience really)
Common Dominie Phase (high level nav)
Common JP Phase (latterly Tucano) low level vis nav.
Streamed Gp 1 Fast Jet or Gp 2 Multi Engine
Group 2 went off to learn the dark arts of Astro etc in the Dominie (the drawback was for the guys who went Nimrods as there wasn’t a great deal of tactical stuff.)
Group 1 did a low level radar targeting phase in the Dominie, followed by an advanced JP common phase (latterly the Hawk). After role disposal there was a strike attack lead in or air defence lead in on the JP/Hawk. For those sent Canberra at role disposal it was back to the Dominie for a bit more dark arts training.
Common Bulldog Phase (air experience really)
Common Dominie Phase (high level nav)
Common JP Phase (latterly Tucano) low level vis nav.
Streamed Gp 1 Fast Jet or Gp 2 Multi Engine
Group 2 went off to learn the dark arts of Astro etc in the Dominie (the drawback was for the guys who went Nimrods as there wasn’t a great deal of tactical stuff.)
Group 1 did a low level radar targeting phase in the Dominie, followed by an advanced JP common phase (latterly the Hawk). After role disposal there was a strike attack lead in or air defence lead in on the JP/Hawk. For those sent Canberra at role disposal it was back to the Dominie for a bit more dark arts training.
Was anyone streamed rotary? I flew with a lot of Nav’s on helicopter Sqn’s, but now that I think about it they were all ex-FW I think. That said, if my memory gets any worse I could throw my own surprise party, so I could be mis-remembering this.
Further to the OP question, could a 'Fightergator' request instead to be a multiengine/rotary-winged pilot, or were their aptitude skills for flying deemed to be so poor that even that was off limits?
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies so far. Interesting to see how the streaming of Navs developed over time, possibly as a result of feedback from OCUs and frontline Sqns it appears.
Talking of Navs on helicopters we had one, and one only, on the SAR Flt I was posted to in the mid 80’s. All the other Radar/Winch operators were AEOp’s.
The particular officer in question was a lovely chap, but was not in the first flush of youth. Picture a Spec Aircrew version of Godfrey from Dad’s Army and you’re not a million miles away.
Not sure what he had flown on previously but we (the groundcrew) suspected, somewhat uncharitably, that he was posted to helicopters as they could stop mid-air and hence allow him to catch up…
Talking of Navs on helicopters we had one, and one only, on the SAR Flt I was posted to in the mid 80’s. All the other Radar/Winch operators were AEOp’s.
The particular officer in question was a lovely chap, but was not in the first flush of youth. Picture a Spec Aircrew version of Godfrey from Dad’s Army and you’re not a million miles away.
Not sure what he had flown on previously but we (the groundcrew) suspected, somewhat uncharitably, that he was posted to helicopters as they could stop mid-air and hence allow him to catch up…
The following 2 users liked this post by Avionker:
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Holly Tree Cottage, Wanborough
Age: 74
Posts: 46
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No streaming in late 60’s
I got my Navigator brevet in 1969. The course was eight months on Varsity followed by four months on the Dominie. Despite the low level roles of Canberras and Vulcans, we were given no low level training whatsoever. With the introduction of the Phantom and Buccaneers into the RAF, this defect was immediately highlighted and some low level training introduced and then formal streaming commenced. I think this was in 1971/72.
My first tour was on EW training Canberras on which we did little low level navigation. We did fly some sorties at low level in the vicinity of the system to which we were giving EW training. However, navigating to and from was at medium or high level.
Next tour was on the C130 where I spent 6 years on Tactical squadrons which had lots on low level. All the tactical techniques were learned on the course run at Lyneham.
My first tour was on EW training Canberras on which we did little low level navigation. We did fly some sorties at low level in the vicinity of the system to which we were giving EW training. However, navigating to and from was at medium or high level.
Next tour was on the C130 where I spent 6 years on Tactical squadrons which had lots on low level. All the tactical techniques were learned on the course run at Lyneham.
Last edited by Vasco dePilot; 14th Nov 2023 at 16:26. Reason: Spelling errors and typos
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,563
Likes: 0
Received 45 Likes
on
30 Posts
Thanks for the replies so far. Interesting to see how the streaming of Navs developed over time, possibly as a result of feedback from OCUs and frontline Sqns it appears.
Talking of Navs on helicopters we had one, and one only, on the SAR Flt I was posted to in the mid 80’s. All the other Radar/Winch operators were AEOp’s.
The particular officer in question was a lovely chap, but was not in the first flush of youth. Picture a Spec Aircrew version of Godfrey from Dad’s Army and you’re not a million miles away.
Not sure what he had flown on previously but we (the groundcrew) suspected, somewhat uncharitably, that he was posted to helicopters as they could stop mid-air and hence allow him to catch up…
Talking of Navs on helicopters we had one, and one only, on the SAR Flt I was posted to in the mid 80’s. All the other Radar/Winch operators were AEOp’s.
The particular officer in question was a lovely chap, but was not in the first flush of youth. Picture a Spec Aircrew version of Godfrey from Dad’s Army and you’re not a million miles away.
Not sure what he had flown on previously but we (the groundcrew) suspected, somewhat uncharitably, that he was posted to helicopters as they could stop mid-air and hence allow him to catch up…
I suppose it depends who the instructor was on the selection course. In my case, my instructor told me at our introduction that he didn't like Navs as winch ops and that I had no chance of passing selection: I didn't.
Multi engine pilot training was also at Finningley. The nav school line book describes a ME student pilot walking into the ante room where “Top Gun “ was being shown. “Ah, I like this film, the navigator gets killed”
Voice from the darkened seats,”At least he made fast jets though”
Voice from the darkened seats,”At least he made fast jets though”
The following 4 users liked this post by Timelord:
minigundiplomat
I trust that was meant to be a humorous remark.
I wanted to be a navigator and put that as my first choice on my OASC application in 65. Having seen the film 'Dr Strangelove' where the nav' was the coolest guy in the B52 crew and the pilot captain was completely nuts had swayed me somewhat. When I was at Gaydon/Strad in 66/7 I was aware of only 2 or 3 chopped pilots among the 100 or so students. On the Herc' fleet we had one or two wannabe pilots - a couple of names come to mind of guys who went to the' dark side' - Graham Finch, Alex Nash and Art Lofthouse.
The downside of being a nav was flying opportunities after RAF service - I believe BOAC got rid of navs ( as opposed to pilots as navs ) in 63 and although there was a brief resurgence when independent airlines ( Dan Air, Lloyd etc ) bought 707s when the big boys replaced them with heavies, I think it was all over by the end of the 70s.
I wanted to be a navigator and put that as my first choice on my OASC application in 65. Having seen the film 'Dr Strangelove' where the nav' was the coolest guy in the B52 crew and the pilot captain was completely nuts had swayed me somewhat. When I was at Gaydon/Strad in 66/7 I was aware of only 2 or 3 chopped pilots among the 100 or so students. On the Herc' fleet we had one or two wannabe pilots - a couple of names come to mind of guys who went to the' dark side' - Graham Finch, Alex Nash and Art Lofthouse.
The downside of being a nav was flying opportunities after RAF service - I believe BOAC got rid of navs ( as opposed to pilots as navs ) in 63 and although there was a brief resurgence when independent airlines ( Dan Air, Lloyd etc ) bought 707s when the big boys replaced them with heavies, I think it was all over by the end of the 70s.