New 145’s rumoured to replace Puma in Cyprus and Brunei.
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New 145’s rumoured to replace Puma in Cyprus and Brunei.
Looks like possibly Six, I don’t know what will happen with the supposed single type to replace Puma etc.
https://www.scramble.nl/military-new...-h145s-for-raf
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Possible new H145s for RAF
Sources in the United Kingdom expect the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to announce a single source acquisition soon for six Airbus H145 helicopters. These helicopters are to be fitted with SAR equipment and will replace the Puma HC2 helicopters in use at Cyprus and Brunei.
If this materializes it is a rather unexpected move since under the delayed New Medium Helicopter (NMH) programme (which was launched in March 2021), the MoD is looking for a single type to replace the Royal Air Force (RAF) Puma and Griffin fleet as well as the Army Air Corps (AAC) Bell 212 and AS365.
Due to cost cutting reasons, both the Bell 212 and Griffin helicopters have already been retired and their role has been temporary taken over by Puma HC2s. With the purchase of H145s to take over this role, the scope of the NMH programme seems at least to have been changed.
At the start of the programme, up to 44 new helicopters were to be purchased. Early 2023, this number seemed to be dropped to 25 to 35 examples. This new, lower number seems to make sense in the light of this potential purchase. The following types are on the short list for the NMH programme: Airbus H175M, Boeing MH-139A Grey Wolf, Leonardo AW149 and Lockheed-Martin (Sikorsky) S-70M Black Hawk
Sources in the United Kingdom expect the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to announce a single source acquisition soon for six Airbus H145 helicopters. These helicopters are to be fitted with SAR equipment and will replace the Puma HC2 helicopters in use at Cyprus and Brunei.
If this materializes it is a rather unexpected move since under the delayed New Medium Helicopter (NMH) programme (which was launched in March 2021), the MoD is looking for a single type to replace the Royal Air Force (RAF) Puma and Griffin fleet as well as the Army Air Corps (AAC) Bell 212 and AS365.
Due to cost cutting reasons, both the Bell 212 and Griffin helicopters have already been retired and their role has been temporary taken over by Puma HC2s. With the purchase of H145s to take over this role, the scope of the NMH programme seems at least to have been changed.
At the start of the programme, up to 44 new helicopters were to be purchased. Early 2023, this number seemed to be dropped to 25 to 35 examples. This new, lower number seems to make sense in the light of this potential purchase. The following types are on the short list for the NMH programme: Airbus H175M, Boeing MH-139A Grey Wolf, Leonardo AW149 and Lockheed-Martin (Sikorsky) S-70M Black Hawk
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Last edited by NutLoose; 11th Nov 2023 at 18:44.
Next headline:
MoD buys helicopters for Cyprus and Brunei that are unsuitable for the role.
The ****(insert platform) is not capable of hovering on one engine in the climate involved; cannot actually winch a stretcher into the cabin; is unable to communicate on military frequencies; cannot navigate to anything other than pre-defined points; cannot carry a self defence suite so is unusable in deployed roles and army boots put dinks in the floor.
Other than that it’s been another success for the DE&S ‘unsuitable but cheap’ aquisition team, manned by civvies who’ve never flown a helicopter but did have a quick go on ‘Airwolf’ on their ZX Spectrum 40 years ago.
MoD buys helicopters for Cyprus and Brunei that are unsuitable for the role.
The ****(insert platform) is not capable of hovering on one engine in the climate involved; cannot actually winch a stretcher into the cabin; is unable to communicate on military frequencies; cannot navigate to anything other than pre-defined points; cannot carry a self defence suite so is unusable in deployed roles and army boots put dinks in the floor.
Other than that it’s been another success for the DE&S ‘unsuitable but cheap’ aquisition team, manned by civvies who’ve never flown a helicopter but did have a quick go on ‘Airwolf’ on their ZX Spectrum 40 years ago.
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As I recall, the 145 is about half the size of a Puma; it would be OK for the '212 and its predecessor the Wessex and would be perfect for replacing the A109 but a Puma it ain't.
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I'd be interested to see what the disposable load is for Brunei, however.
I cannot speak to the 212 replacement for Brunei, but the 145 is definitely suited to replace the 412 in Cyprus. I double-toured on 84 (Wessex and 412) 
and I know the role as well as anyone. Neither the Wessex nor the 412 were Safe Single Engine on the vast majority of occasions, so the 145 is no different at all. We just made sure our pilots were initimately familiar with SSE, Flyway and Committed calls and procedures which was admittedly easier with ex RAF SAR guys to be sure - the current RAF pilots out-of-training are a shadow of their predeccessors sadly in terms of judgement and decision making, although that is a result of the MFTS system, not their fault. The 145 is clearly not as large as a Puma, but it is large enough for the role. It has around double the endurance of the Puma and a fraction of the operating costs. All new UK helicopter pilots are now trained on the H135 and it is a simple conversion (I did it in 1 sortie) to qualify on the H145, so similar are the checks and controls (although not identical).
I see this as a very positive move. The Blackhawk is surely the best bet for NMH, but it would be overkill for Cyprus. This means a cheap, reliable platform can fill the 84 Sqn role, and fewer of the far more expensive S70i are required for NMH as Cyprus and Brunei requirements will be removed from the mix, making Blackhawk a more viable option in the UKP 1.2 Billion NMH budget.
For once, a sensible decision from the MoD procurement dudes.
and I know the role as well as anyone. Neither the Wessex nor the 412 were Safe Single Engine on the vast majority of occasions, so the 145 is no different at all. We just made sure our pilots were initimately familiar with SSE, Flyway and Committed calls and procedures which was admittedly easier with ex RAF SAR guys to be sure - the current RAF pilots out-of-training are a shadow of their predeccessors sadly in terms of judgement and decision making, although that is a result of the MFTS system, not their fault. The 145 is clearly not as large as a Puma, but it is large enough for the role. It has around double the endurance of the Puma and a fraction of the operating costs. All new UK helicopter pilots are now trained on the H135 and it is a simple conversion (I did it in 1 sortie) to qualify on the H145, so similar are the checks and controls (although not identical).I see this as a very positive move. The Blackhawk is surely the best bet for NMH, but it would be overkill for Cyprus. This means a cheap, reliable platform can fill the 84 Sqn role, and fewer of the far more expensive S70i are required for NMH as Cyprus and Brunei requirements will be removed from the mix, making Blackhawk a more viable option in the UKP 1.2 Billion NMH budget.
For once, a sensible decision from the MoD procurement dudes.
Last edited by Lucifer Morningstar; 11th Nov 2023 at 20:52.
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Well it seems to be operated in a, lot of places with similar climates to Brunei.
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I cannot speak to the 212 replacement for Brunei, but the 145 is definitely suited to replace the 412 in Cyprus. I double-toured on 84 (Wessex and 412) and I know the role as well as anyone. Neither the Wessex nor the 412 were Safe Single Engine on the vast majority of occasions, so the 145 is no different at all. We just made sure our pilots were initimately familiar with SSE, Flyway and Committed calls and procedures which was admittedly easier with ex RAF SAR guys to be sure - the current RAF pilots out-of-training are a shadow of their predeccessors sadly in terms of judgement and decision making, although that is a result of the MFTS system, not their fault. The 145 is clearly not as large as a Puma, but it is large enough for the role. It has around double the endurance of the Puma and a fraction of the operating costs. All new UK helicopter pilots are now trained on the H135 and it is a simple conversion (I did it in 1 sortie) to qualify on the H145, so similar are the checks and controls (although not identical).
I see this as a very positive move. The Blackhawk is surely the best bet for NMH, but it would be overkill for Cyprus. This means a cheap, reliable platform can fill the 84 Sqn role, and fewer of the far more expensive S70i are required for NMH as Cyprus and Brunei requirements will be removed from the mix, making Blackhawk a more viable option in the UKP 1.2 Billion NMH budget.
For once, a sensible decision from the MoD procurement dudes.
and I know the role as well as anyone. Neither the Wessex nor the 412 were Safe Single Engine on the vast majority of occasions, so the 145 is no different at all. We just made sure our pilots were initimately familiar with SSE, Flyway and Committed calls and procedures which was admittedly easier with ex RAF SAR guys to be sure - the current RAF pilots out-of-training are a shadow of their predeccessors sadly in terms of judgement and decision making, although that is a result of the MFTS system, not their fault. The 145 is clearly not as large as a Puma, but it is large enough for the role. It has around double the endurance of the Puma and a fraction of the operating costs. All new UK helicopter pilots are now trained on the H135 and it is a simple conversion (I did it in 1 sortie) to qualify on the H145, so similar are the checks and controls (although not identical).I see this as a very positive move. The Blackhawk is surely the best bet for NMH, but it would be overkill for Cyprus. This means a cheap, reliable platform can fill the 84 Sqn role, and fewer of the far more expensive S70i are required for NMH as Cyprus and Brunei requirements will be removed from the mix, making Blackhawk a more viable option in the UKP 1.2 Billion NMH budget.
For once, a sensible decision from the MoD procurement dudes.
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The one thing it is not....is a combat helicopter and the US Military has been quite clear on that from day one.
That set off a huge debate about the wisdom of spending so much money for such little "combat aviation benefit".
The counter argument was it put into operation a class of helicopter that would fill the non-combat needs of the US Army and later other services and do so much more economically.
The truth of the debate is both sides are right so long as the (in the American version UH-72A or B) is not forced by need to be placed in a combat situation ever.
if that does happen then young folks are going be sent to war in a machine not fit for purpose and shall pay the price for bean counter's wisdom.
In a desparate situation the temptation to send those aircraft into places they should not be is what concerns a lot of people.
The question re the 145 replacing the 212/412/Puma in Brunei or Cyprus is a moot point as the 145 will do fine even with some of the known limitations.
Single engine OEI out of ground effect hover issues are not limited to the 145 as the other airframes have their own issues in that regard.
Budgets generally control aircraft choices more than other factors as the Funds available during any budget year determine what the real limitations are.
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/p...million-flight
That set off a huge debate about the wisdom of spending so much money for such little "combat aviation benefit".
The counter argument was it put into operation a class of helicopter that would fill the non-combat needs of the US Army and later other services and do so much more economically.
The truth of the debate is both sides are right so long as the (in the American version UH-72A or B) is not forced by need to be placed in a combat situation ever.
if that does happen then young folks are going be sent to war in a machine not fit for purpose and shall pay the price for bean counter's wisdom.
In a desparate situation the temptation to send those aircraft into places they should not be is what concerns a lot of people.
The question re the 145 replacing the 212/412/Puma in Brunei or Cyprus is a moot point as the 145 will do fine even with some of the known limitations.
Single engine OEI out of ground effect hover issues are not limited to the 145 as the other airframes have their own issues in that regard.
Budgets generally control aircraft choices more than other factors as the Funds available during any budget year determine what the real limitations are.
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/p...million-flight
Lucifer,
l am going to call you on this one, the first 412 arrived in March 03 and I don't remember seeing you on the Sqn at that time let alone ever flying the 412 there! Of course you have 412 and 145 experience from later in life but not in Cyprus conditions. I do however agree with your reasoning having flown and tested both aircraft in the UK SAR role.
l am going to call you on this one, the first 412 arrived in March 03 and I don't remember seeing you on the Sqn at that time let alone ever flying the 412 there! Of course you have 412 and 145 experience from later in life but not in Cyprus conditions. I do however agree with your reasoning having flown and tested both aircraft in the UK SAR role.
Lucifer,
l am going to call you on this one, the first 412 arrived in March 03 and I don't remember seeing you on the Sqn at that time let alone ever flying the 412 there! Of course you have 412 and 145 experience from later in life but not in Cyprus conditions. I do however agree with your reasoning having flown and tested both aircraft in the UK SAR role.
l am going to call you on this one, the first 412 arrived in March 03 and I don't remember seeing you on the Sqn at that time let alone ever flying the 412 there! Of course you have 412 and 145 experience from later in life but not in Cyprus conditions. I do however agree with your reasoning having flown and tested both aircraft in the UK SAR role.
Dag,
If you are trying to make a point of some kind....care to dress it up so we can figure out what it is please?
The vintage aircraft you mention came about before the US Military had a proper set of specifications for combat helicopters....with the first being the UH-60 Blackhawk which came about from the UTTAS Program which incorporated knowledge and experience gained from the use of those aircraft you mentioned during the Vietnam War (less perhaps the 212 which in military garb is the UH-1N.
The UH-72 was not designed or built to meet the stringent design requirements that led to the design of the UH-60 and is nothing more than a EC-145 with minor differences for use in permissive environments.
The 145 will do a good job in Cyprus and Brunei so long as it is limited to oprations much like any normal public transport or utility helicopter.
https://www.army.mil/article/239417/...ity_helicopter
If you are trying to make a point of some kind....care to dress it up so we can figure out what it is please?
The vintage aircraft you mention came about before the US Military had a proper set of specifications for combat helicopters....with the first being the UH-60 Blackhawk which came about from the UTTAS Program which incorporated knowledge and experience gained from the use of those aircraft you mentioned during the Vietnam War (less perhaps the 212 which in military garb is the UH-1N.
The UH-72 was not designed or built to meet the stringent design requirements that led to the design of the UH-60 and is nothing more than a EC-145 with minor differences for use in permissive environments.
The 145 will do a good job in Cyprus and Brunei so long as it is limited to oprations much like any normal public transport or utility helicopter.
https://www.army.mil/article/239417/...ity_helicopter
Lucifer: agree with your first post, well authored. You are wrong about the arrival date of the 412 though, it was March 03. The SKOCU covered, roughly Jan-March (maybe april?)
Saintsman: The whole NMH piece was seen in some circles as a ‘ffs give westlands some work’ agenda. Unfortunately, if NMH is going to be a REAL Puma replacement then a military helicopter should be purchased, not a Leonardo machine painted green.
SASLESS: More on my wavelength. It always gripped my sh1t that 84 did not have a proper capability for military tasks, being so close to the area of current interest. The UK has to deploy other assets on a regular basis, it should get a grip and buy a proper machine, rather than wait a week for odiham’s (now dilapidated and over committed) assets to rock up after strewing themselves across europe.
Myra- correct. March 03.
Saintsman: The whole NMH piece was seen in some circles as a ‘ffs give westlands some work’ agenda. Unfortunately, if NMH is going to be a REAL Puma replacement then a military helicopter should be purchased, not a Leonardo machine painted green.
SASLESS: More on my wavelength. It always gripped my sh1t that 84 did not have a proper capability for military tasks, being so close to the area of current interest. The UK has to deploy other assets on a regular basis, it should get a grip and buy a proper machine, rather than wait a week for odiham’s (now dilapidated and over committed) assets to rock up after strewing themselves across europe.
Myra- correct. March 03.
Lucifer: agree with your first post, well authored. You are wrong about the arrival date of the 412 though, it was March 03. The SKOCU covered, roughly Jan-March (maybe april?)
Saintsman: The whole NMH piece was seen in some circles as a ‘ffs give westlands some work’ agenda. Unfortunately, if NMH is going to be a REAL Puma replacement then a military helicopter should be purchased, not a Leonardo machine painted green.
SASLESS: More on my wavelength. It always gripped my sh1t that 84 did not have a proper capability for military tasks, being so close to the area of current interest. The UK has to deploy other assets on a regular basis, it should get a grip and buy a proper machine, rather than wait a week for odiham’s (now dilapidated and over committed) assets to rock up after strewing themselves across europe.
Myra- correct. March 03.
Saintsman: The whole NMH piece was seen in some circles as a ‘ffs give westlands some work’ agenda. Unfortunately, if NMH is going to be a REAL Puma replacement then a military helicopter should be purchased, not a Leonardo machine painted green.
SASLESS: More on my wavelength. It always gripped my sh1t that 84 did not have a proper capability for military tasks, being so close to the area of current interest. The UK has to deploy other assets on a regular basis, it should get a grip and buy a proper machine, rather than wait a week for odiham’s (now dilapidated and over committed) assets to rock up after strewing themselves across europe.
Myra- correct. March 03.
I suspect his point is that if you had a capable military asset in Cyprus you wouldn't have to deploy Chinooks from Odiham across Europe to Cyprus - because it's almost always Chinooks that do that, not Puma.
There were plenty of Blackhawks in Cyprus over the years, US Army and USAF detachments resupplying embassies - a great aircraft but not much use if the crews are poorly trained and don't even have the basic skills for overwater hovering or basic tactical nouse.
In the 80s, a 3-ship would depart across the water on a weekly basis, not one of them winch equipped - just a wire ladder arrangement - and crewed by pilots whose though hovering over the water was a dark art requiring two pilots with the controls split between them. Then on arrival at their destination, they would sit in a racetrack pattern at 2-300' just off the coast (small arms threat band anyone?) while each went in, in turn, to complete the resupply.
All the gear and no idea was a phrase commonly heard. Having the right aircraft is important but at least as important is making sure your crews are up to the job.
Sadly nowadays with the poor training system in place, we will have neither.
In the 80s, a 3-ship would depart across the water on a weekly basis, not one of them winch equipped - just a wire ladder arrangement - and crewed by pilots whose though hovering over the water was a dark art requiring two pilots with the controls split between them. Then on arrival at their destination, they would sit in a racetrack pattern at 2-300' just off the coast (small arms threat band anyone?) while each went in, in turn, to complete the resupply.
All the gear and no idea was a phrase commonly heard. Having the right aircraft is important but at least as important is making sure your crews are up to the job.
Sadly nowadays with the poor training system in place, we will have neither.