Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

USAF Lessons from Ukraine

Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

USAF Lessons from Ukraine

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 19th Aug 2023, 09:17
  #1 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 17,413
Received 1,593 Likes on 730 Posts
USAF Lessons from Ukraine

Skipping over the SAW/SAM parts (important but I think already well covered), I found the emphasis on FOB/dispersed operations interesting. The USMC already doing road trials with the F-35B* - maybe we need to be reinventing the RAFG Harrier model...

* https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-coast-highway

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...nder-in-europe

Top Ukraine War Lessons From USAF’s Commander In Europe

With neither side in the now 542-day-old war in Ukraine able to achieve air superiority, the U.S. and NATO are gathering valuable lessons for how they may have to fight on the continent in the future, the general in charge of U.S. and NATO air operations in Europe said Friday.

The U.S. and NATO will have to improve methods to counter integrated air defenses, defend against incoming threats, communicate and move assets around the continent under the U.S. doctrine of Agile Combat Employment (ACE). Those were the conclusions delivered by U.S. Air Force Gen. James Hecker - head of U.S. Air Forces in Europe (USAFE), as well as NATO's Allied Air Command and U.S. Air Forces Africa (AFAFRICA) - Friday during a Defense Writers Group virtual briefing.....

.....One of the main reasons the Ukrainian Air Force has been able to stay in the fight is its ability to move its aircraft around the country and still have the enough airstrips with stocked supplies capable of sustaining air combat operations.

Hecker said that success shows the U.S. and NATO need to step up their ACE efforts.

ACE has been around “way before the Ukraine-Russian war started,” said Hecker. “And it was mainly in response to the situation in the Indo-Pacific, knowing that China had several cruise missiles, very capable cruise missiles and things like that, and we had to move or else - you know we don’t want to lose all our aircraft on the ground.”

“So enter Ukraine, and now we kind of see how they're doing and what's being effective for them by them moving their airplanes around against the threat that we’d most likely face - definitely face - if we go to Article Five [NATO collective defense agreement]. We need to make sure that we can do that as well.”

The U.S. and NATO employ ACE to some extent in Europe as well, said Hecker. But nowhere as much as Ukraine.

“We have to make sure we can be as proficient as they are,” he said of the Ukrainians, who employ their own version of ACE every day, throwing off Russia's ability to target their aircraft with standoff weapons.

“Now as weapons get a lot more accurate, etc, they can just hit every single aircraft even if it's dispersed,” said Hecker. “So what we have to do now is disperse our aircraft amongst different airfields and potentially even on highways and these kinds of things that Finland brings to the plate.”...

The U.S. had more of that capability during the Cold War, when there were more bases in Europe for U.S. combat aircraft to land, receive needed maintenance and rearm. Restoring that ability is a priority, said Hecker.

“We're going to start off with 20 to 25” such bases, said Hecker. “Of course, I'm not going to tell you where they're at. But they're in strategic locations around Europe.”

Those bases will be supplied with equipment common “to any aircraft,” said Hecker.

“We're going to work with the nations and their maintenance so that we can get interoperable on different kinds of aircraft like we were able to do 30-40 years ago.”

Last, but not least, the U.S. and NATO need more robust communications, Hecker said.

"How are we going to command and control all these units, especially if they're taking off and landing at other airfields using the ACE concept? How are we going to make that happen? And especially if we get denied communications, because that will cut off from that from a cyber attack, etc."....





ORAC is online now  
Old 19th Aug 2023, 10:06
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Royal Berkshire
Posts: 1,738
Received 77 Likes on 39 Posts
We'll instead probably just close down a few more bases I suspect......
GeeRam is offline  
The following 3 users liked this post by GeeRam:
Old 19th Aug 2023, 10:54
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: LEIC
Posts: 96
Received 5 Likes on 2 Posts
Good practice then that some of the Brize fleet has been dispersed around Waddington, Stansted, Birmingham and East Mids this week
ROC man is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by ROC man:
Old 19th Aug 2023, 12:58
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 75
Posts: 18,290
Received 514 Likes on 215 Posts
Those bases will be supplied with equipment common “to any aircraft,” said Hecker.

“We're going to work with the nations and their maintenance so that we can get interoperable on different kinds of aircraft like we were able to do 30-40 years ago.”

Last, but not least, the U.S. and NATO need more robust communications, Hecker said.

"How are we going to command and control all these units, especially if they're taking off and landing at other airfields using the ACE concept? How are we going to make that happen? And especially if we get denied communications, because that will cut off from that from a cyber attack, etc."....

So....the UK is closing bases right and left....which seems contrarian to the strategic goal of NATO.

Can NATO or the USAF take possession of some of these bases being closed and run them on a Standby basis?

​​​​​​​Is the USAF closing bases of its own?

Inter-operability allowing for the sharing of "common" parts.....now there is a mouthful.

As the CH-47 is a very "common" aircraft.....operated by probably every NATO Member (no I did not google it)....just how "common" are the parts among the many versions of the Chinook being operated? (Just one example)

If you really for dispersal....how does one communicate reliably and maintain stockage of those common parts....and who pays for them?

Who pays for those "dispersed" locations (not necessarily "Bases" but perhaps preplanned roadside lagers or similar) and keeps them prepared for use?

Now...consider high performance FJ's, large Transport aircraft, and major repair facilities not to mention industrial capability to produce urgent repair parts.

Seems a daunting task for a multi-national force to iron out the wrinkles in the effort.
SASless is online now  
Old 19th Aug 2023, 14:35
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Freedom Sound
Posts: 355
Received 8 Likes on 4 Posts
How can swarms of small drones be easily detected and destroyed? Only have to remember the "farce" at Gatwick a while back and that was just one small drone.
esscee is online now  
The following users liked this post:
Old 19th Aug 2023, 15:11
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 8,438
Received 362 Likes on 211 Posts
it was never proven to be a drone at all - it was a very windy day IIRC and people kept claiming they'd seen something but nothing was ever found
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2023, 16:39
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 136 Likes on 64 Posts
Dispersed Operaions …

Some 30 years ago my team in War Plans and Policy were looking into the subject. No idea whether any real progress has been made in UK. We looked at near off-base dispersal, decoys, camouflage, distant dispersal (Civil airfields and disused Mil) … and a whole load of other aspects including C3.. It all came down to the manpower, logistics, engineering and a host of rat-**** that makes these cute demos look great … until you start punching the numbers.

Are the days of big fixed bases over? Certainly CSTOL offers options, but most NATO air forces are, I suspect, decades behind where certain Nordic nations have been for ages.
MPN11 is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2023, 17:57
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Washington.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,077
Received 151 Likes on 53 Posts
Originally Posted by ORAC
Skipping over the SAW/SAM parts (important but I think already well covered), I found the emphasis on FOB/dispersed operations interesting. The USMC already doing road trials with the F-35B* - maybe we need to be reinventing the RAFG Harrier model...

* https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-coast-highway

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...nder-in-europe

Top Ukraine War Lessons From USAF’s Commander In Europe

With neither side in the now 542-day-old war in Ukraine able to achieve air superiority, the U.S. and NATO are gathering valuable lessons for how they may have to fight on the continent in the future, the general in charge of U.S. and NATO air operations in Europe said Friday.

The U.S. and NATO will have to improve methods to counter integrated air defenses, defend against incoming threats, communicate and move assets around the continent under the U.S. doctrine of Agile Combat Employment (ACE). Those were the conclusions delivered by U.S. Air Force Gen. James Hecker - head of U.S. Air Forces in Europe (USAFE), as well as NATO's Allied Air Command and U.S. Air Forces Africa (AFAFRICA) - Friday during a Defense Writers Group virtual briefing.....

.....One of the main reasons the Ukrainian Air Force has been able to stay in the fight is its ability to move its aircraft around the country and still have the enough airstrips with stocked supplies capable of sustaining air combat operations.

Hecker said that success shows the U.S. and NATO need to step up their ACE efforts.

ACE has been around “way before the Ukraine-Russian war started,” said Hecker. “And it was mainly in response to the situation in the Indo-Pacific, knowing that China had several cruise missiles, very capable cruise missiles and things like that, and we had to move or else - you know we don’t want to lose all our aircraft on the ground.”

“So enter Ukraine, and now we kind of see how they're doing and what's being effective for them by them moving their airplanes around against the threat that we’d most likely face - definitely face - if we go to Article Five [NATO collective defense agreement]. We need to make sure that we can do that as well.”

The U.S. and NATO employ ACE to some extent in Europe as well, said Hecker. But nowhere as much as Ukraine.

“We have to make sure we can be as proficient as they are,” he said of the Ukrainians, who employ their own version of ACE every day, throwing off Russia's ability to target their aircraft with standoff weapons.

“Now as weapons get a lot more accurate, etc, they can just hit every single aircraft even if it's dispersed,” said Hecker. “So what we have to do now is disperse our aircraft amongst different airfields and potentially even on highways and these kinds of things that Finland brings to the plate.”...

The U.S. had more of that capability during the Cold War, when there were more bases in Europe for U.S. combat aircraft to land, receive needed maintenance and rearm. Restoring that ability is a priority, said Hecker.

“We're going to start off with 20 to 25” such bases, said Hecker. “Of course, I'm not going to tell you where they're at. But they're in strategic locations around Europe.”

Those bases will be supplied with equipment common “to any aircraft,” said Hecker.

“We're going to work with the nations and their maintenance so that we can get interoperable on different kinds of aircraft like we were able to do 30-40 years ago.”

Last, but not least, the U.S. and NATO need more robust communications, Hecker said.

"How are we going to command and control all these units, especially if they're taking off and landing at other airfields using the ACE concept? How are we going to make that happen? And especially if we get denied communications, because that will cut off from that from a cyber attack, etc."....
Isn’t the main lesson the USAF is learning from Ukraine that air cover, CAS, and interdiction are not needed to support the ground war? Isn’t that why we have delayed providing F-16s for so long? Think of the money the USAF could save by downsizing it’s fighter force.
GlobalNav is online now  
The following users liked this post:
Old 19th Aug 2023, 20:47
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 8,438
Received 362 Likes on 211 Posts
"until you start punching the numbers."

this is true in "normal" times - but in a real war - such as Ukraine - the numbers mean zero - it's can you keep the force active

the evidence shows that a few fixed bases are a shooting gallery for missiles and drones - you have to shoot and scoot
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 19th Aug 2023, 21:06
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 2,693
Received 902 Likes on 527 Posts
Punching the numbers can mean you find you need a lot more personnel and equipment to support deployed ops than you do you to run main base ops. If you haven't got the guys and gals or the kit to do it, you cannot make more out of thin air in anything like the required timescale and throwing money at the problem will not help.
Ninthace is online now  
The following 2 users liked this post by Ninthace:
Old 20th Aug 2023, 00:38
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Fife
Posts: 271
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What I find interesting about this is the quasi recognition that threatened and/or redundant airfields shouldn't necessarily be saved per se. Almost the contrary.

The ones which have already been turned into industrial estates and those thus threatened could quite reasonably be turned back into support facilities. Even if just for drones and missiles. With a rough operating strip masquerading as a truck parking area or access route.

Widened highways in the forest are still quite identifiable by satellite. But imagine having to go around every fenced off brown site, trying to figure out if its tractor parts or pointy things theyre producing. Or if its diesel or avgas they're storing.

Cooch
Coochycool is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2023, 06:01
  #12 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,956
Received 861 Likes on 257 Posts
Originally Posted by GlobalNav
Isn’t the main lesson the USAF is learning from Ukraine that air cover, CAS, and interdiction are not needed to support the ground war? Isn’t that why we have delayed providing F-16s for so long? Think of the money the USAF could save by downsizing it’s fighter force.
Biting commentary the GN.

Ouch.

The take-home was it is only Ukraine that doesn't warrant the protection of CAS and better air cover, or means to interdict arty nearby.

The munitions capable UAVs from within your own (RuSSia's) lines are going to make a fashion statement for the future, wherever there is a potential 5th column, bases, particularly the big, centralised ones will become ideal targets that are worth the effort to cause some mayhem with. There are systems that are in place to counter that, but the capability of the attacker is growing fast, and it is a distributed threat, gonna cause some sleepless nights.

Singapore has had the ability to decentralise their operations to highways all around the island for years, and they practice that routinely. The concept of retaining some capability at the airbases that may be closed for cost saving seems to be too obvious to get any support from the numpties that seem to be placed by the great unwashed into the positions responsible for the security of the realm. It is too sensible to survive the gestation period in the back pocket of the pollies we have empowered in most of our lands. Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Sweden, they actually have some pollies that are worth providing oxygen to, when they are not on fire. [Brexit, thanks for nuthin']

The KA-52 is a curiosity, has it taught us that the AH-64 is worth the effort, or is not? I doubt that the Apache is more survivable than the -52, and we have seen at least one ejector seat actually function correctly out of a 'gator, seems an expensive way to get an extra set of boots into the middle of a firefight. The concern the Ukrainians indicate on the anti tank work by the 'gator suggests that it has some merit in the field, good for the AH-64, and maybe even the AH-1, but maybe, just maybe, the lowly old Loach with a bunch of TOWs is a really tiny target and able to survive by not being seen, it appears that if targeted, a parachute is a handy thing to have, so not being targeted would be ups there in the to-do list.

Am a fan of the A-10, but, the Su-25's have taken a beating, and not in a good way. The FEBA has always been a difficult place to be, but the only thing that is surviving flying over it for any period of time at present are the DGI drone drivers.

The Switchblade series were outclassed in spectacular fashion by a bunch of enthusiasts with an intent to actually save their country from criminal invasion, and while the US's 250K a pop switchblade systems were getting all packaged up neatly, a couple of $500 3D printers and a few dollars of PET filament and some 40mm grenades were clipped to $500 quad copters and actually went and messed up with the Vlads sand pit, and seem to still do so. What happened to the share price of the Switchblade OEM? DGI is not the solution for the west, but there isn't much in out that cannot be picked up from Phidgets and applied by some resourceful types. If the operators have the ability to close to a target, they make for a compelling case.

The Iranian drones are adding... nothing much new, although they do make the case that swarm attacks will require responses by defenders, it took Ukraine a couple fo days to get on top of that, and since then, Vlad continues to waste much of his effort with proving that the Ukrainians have a fair solution to his bad temper. Adaptability is the strength that Ukraine has shown, just a bit behind ingenuity. RuSSia has made it easy for Ukraine to keep up morale, Vlad finds new and inventive ways to pour more gasoline onto the reputation of the Russian Empire Federation.

Lessons learned, most have been learnt before, and we habitually forget.

fdr is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by fdr:
Old 20th Aug 2023, 09:20
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,810
Received 136 Likes on 64 Posts
From the F-35 SI ...

1.4.151
Since its inception the UK F-35 workforce was under resourced.
This resulted in an inability to generate sufficient aircraft to deliver the required operational capability. The establishment was below that required, resulting in insufficient availability of workforce. ...[snip]... Even to deploy 113 personnel on Op FORTIS, 617 Sqn had to borrow personnel from 207 Sqn.
And that's just one sqn [with 8 ac] going aboard QNLZ with all it's resources. Now try doing bare-base dispersal of assets in numerous locations. Where do the people [mainly engineers] come from, when 617 had to borrow from 207 to put their handful of jets on board.
MPN11 is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2023, 09:39
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,164
Received 47 Likes on 23 Posts
The RAF is only configured for the deployed 'war of choice' type of operation, nothing more. There is nothing configured to defend the UK itself, should we endure that kind of conflict.

For those older ex-service members on this forum you can forget the days of 'survive to fight', defending bases, hardened facilities, dispersed operations, engineering bays (let alone the days of hardened bays), fleets of MT, military logistics or base defence. All of it was disposed of for the sake of 'political hope', albeit with a nod that we would be able to re-grow, should the need arise, within 10 years. The point being that we could regenerate faster than a threat could present itself.

Of course, we passed that 10-year tipping-point nearly 2 decades ago. We did not regenerate and the cuts continued. Some things have remained the same of course. Warfare still looks to target the adversary's ability to fight. In the case of the RAF that means that adversaries will not be targeting our military logistics, engineering, stockpiles and alike, hardened, dispersed or otherwise - we destroyed them ourselves. The targets the RAF provides for tomorrow are civilian contractor facilities such as those for Raytheon, Boeing, LM, BAE Systems, MBDA, Northrop Grumman et al. We know exactly how our adversaries can 'fight' the UK. Whilst whilst fleets of bombers, cruise missiles and alike do feature on the threat board they are probably less likely than techniques already used against the UK and others.

Want to impact the UK's ability to fight - direct message the social media of civilian contractors, telling them not to go to work. Dope a few more door handles and add additional warmth to some tea again to bolster the message. Clearly I am only posting publicly-known threats but be mindful that the UK used to include protection, resilience and redundancy of critical UK infrastructure, when it was still in public hands. That too has changed, beyond all recognition.
Just This Once... is offline  
The following 7 users liked this post by Just This Once...:
Old 20th Aug 2023, 13:00
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 467
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
As in 9/11 when the US discovered it hadn't any means of deploying to find and intercept aircraft WITHIN its borders.
Move to having a viable small and economic drone force, able to swamp defences, as the V1 almost did even with RAF and USAAF fighters deployed all over the South of England.
Remember you only have to be lucky once, and your enemy unlucky only once.
Icare9 is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2023, 13:51
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pathfinder Country
Posts: 505
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Not just aircraft knocking down the V1. Once the guns were deployed to the coastal belt very high percentages were achieved, 60 plus? Defences were hard pushed but not overwhelmed.
aw ditor is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2023, 22:46
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: aus
Posts: 1,315
Likes: 0
Received 111 Likes on 69 Posts
Originally Posted by aw ditor
Not just aircraft knocking down the V1. Once the guns were deployed to the coastal belt very high percentages were achieved, 60 plus? Defences were hard pushed but not overwhelmed.
Proximity fusing for the AA had a big effect on V1 interception rate, but they were some the biggest top secret and it only came out after the war
rattman is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2023, 00:13
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 5,944
Received 394 Likes on 209 Posts
And that's just one sqn [with 8 ac] going aboard QNLZ with all it's resources. Now try doing bare-base dispersal of assets in numerous locations. Where do the people [mainly engineers] come from, when 617 had to borrow from 207 to put their handful of jets on board
Not forgetting either that the US had double the crew, though they did have two more aircraft to add to the workload.
megan is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2023, 06:49
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 2,451
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes on 5 Posts
We fail to learn (think), or only change very slowly - see ref; 'Preface and Introduction, pages 19 - 30

And we rarely fight the war which we plan for.

https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Por..._the_Pale_.pdf
safetypee is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2023, 12:50
  #20 (permalink)  
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: The Gulf Coast
Posts: 1,709
Received 287 Likes on 130 Posts
notasmodnoradmin
In the not-too-distant future, I expect that the Armed Forces of Ukraine will be much sought after, in terms of offering training and lessons learned, by professional military organizations all over the world.
T28B is offline  
The following 5 users liked this post by T28B:


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.