Apache and Nasty Fleschettes?

[A Grey Man]

Reading page 2 of the Mail yesterday (Sat 31 Aug 02) I noticed that El Presidente and his cronies have denounced the Israelis use of tank fleschettes against personnel. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the all singing, all dancing mighty Apache have this weapon system that will soon be 'hosing' down troops and soft skinned vehicles with similar tungsten darts that travel at a very fast speed?

What is the latest on the use of this aircraft....all a bit quiet from all 3 services (surely not a banter free zone!). Everything okay out there or just preparing to go to sunnier climates

[flygunz]

The munition that has anything sharp in it has been removed from service and replaced with a free flight rocket that discards confetti from a safe distance to prevent any possibility of injury.
The Longbow has now found a new mission providing timely support to weddings.
That gives me another idea for laser light shows.......... brb

[Mac the Knife]

Beehive rounds, which release a high-velocity cloud of thousands of hardened steel darts about the size of finishing nails, called flechettes (not fleschettes) [from the French for a little arrow] have been around for ages as a tank load. The 106mm Beehive round contained 9,500 flechettes. Good for clearing snipers out of the treeline and upsetting AT missile operators. The Cav used them extensively in Vietnam. Yawn.

[A Grey Man]

But it still doesn't answer the question....

Mac,

Thanks for your little weapons lesson.....obviously you did stay awake during the JAWS course or just into that kind of stuff. Sorry about the spelling.

However, it still doesn't answer the question about the UK Govt telling the Israelis not to use flechettes and then procuring and planning to use this type of weapon.

What do you think.....?

[Straight Up]

I remember seeing a poster of all the 70mm rocket types during an WAH-64 famil course, but we were told that the UK was getting all the types, including the Flechettes (weren't they about 80mm long tungsten darts, approx 100 per round? max of 4x19 round pods giving about 7600 flechettes, nasty stuff).

This is just what I remember from the famil course (about 3 years ago), and that was the closest I ever got to an Apache. The numbers come from opening a very dodgy memory area, I usually start to drift into daydreams on these sorts of courses.

S.U.

[MightyGem]

I think, IMHO, that we are most unlikely to be firing it in an internal security role(apart from maybe NI!!).

[moggie]

Perhaps it is their employment amongst civilians that is more the issue? In full scale combat against military personnel - well, that is acceptable to most people, but chucking them at kids (even if they are likely to be future suicide bombers) is surely not.

I saw a great cartoon in the paper a few years back at the time of the last uprising:

The scene : Hell. Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan all siiting down to enjoy a cup of tea. Jossef Goebels is banging on the ceiling with a broom because they are being disturbed by the sound of the Israeli troops beating up children!

[contact_tower]

I think the general public would get a bit pi**** if AAC Apaches started to hose civilian veihichles with flechettes in NI, which is what the Israelis are doing on the west bank.......

[9.81m/s/s]

As a native of God's own chosen land ( NI ), I can wholeheartedly support the use of Flechette rounds in certain locations in the ' province '. But wait........oh no! Surely the good guys can't possibly use indiscriminate weapons against people - who lets face it - are very discriminate( !? ) in their use of semtex! ( Heavy hint of irony, sure they are all better now they are out of prison - working for charity, part time work manning the telephones for the Samaritans and........ oh yeah still beating and shooting the s**t out of teenagers!! Well done Mr B - you must sleep very well at night! )

[mutleyfour]

We need a gimp to put the mockers on Mr B every now and then, How about Mr Mugabe?

[andrewc]

Its a different, possibly more proactive, approach to
counter-insurgency than I would recommend.

The Israelis are in the process of reaping a whirlwind
that they are generating.

Effective CT is about keeping the lid on a situation,
delivering bad-guys to prison via a visible court process
(not murdering them) and reducing the local antagonism
to pro forces by *minimising* the collateral effects of
the CT process.

While the trouble is being kept under control, is the time
for political / diplomatic action to remove the political reasons
why the terrorism is taking place...

-- Andrew