FAA Aircrew and Ship Commands

[Finningley Boy]

Good Afternoon all,

I've recently managed to accrue every on of the 45 episodes of the excellent classic 1970s TV Docu/Drama, Warship. Now I appreciate that this is a largely Light Blue forum, however, someone might be in the know. At the start of Episode 20, which is the start of Season 3, the Captain, Commander Mark Nialls (Donald Burton), is replaced by Commander Alan Glenn (Brian Marshall), the latter isn't, by profession a Bridge Officer/Pilot, he's a current FAA pilot and straight from commanding a squadron of F-4s. What seems difficult to swallow, is have FAA aircrew always been expected and able to jump from aviation to being a ship's Navigation officer/Skipper, without any intervening training and conversion programme of some depth and length?

FB

[Bengo]

Originally Posted by Finningley Boy

Good Afternoon all,

I've recently managed to accrue every on of the 45 episodes of the excellent classic 1970s TV Docu/Drama, Warship. Now I appreciate that this is a largely Light Blue forum, however, someone might be in the know. At the start of Episode 20, which is the start of Season 3, the Captain, Commander Mark Nialls (Donald Burton), is replaced by Commander Alan Glenn (Brian Marshall), the latter isn't, by profession a Bridge Officer/Pilot, he's a current FAA pilot and straight from commanding a squadron of F-4s. What seems difficult to swallow, is have FAA aircrew always been expected and able to jump from aviation to being a ship's Navigation officer/Skipper, without any intervening training and conversion programme of some depth and length?

FB

Once upon a time , yes. Get the right recommends and be chosen. Complete CO Designate course and sink or swim. Not all aviators managed to swim.

These days, not likely. Before I left, the most likely route to Command led through PWO qualification, subsequent experience in the Ops Room and passing the Command Exams.

N

[Ninthace]

Many moons ago. many many moons, when I was but a makey learny Lt(RN) out of BRNC doing my sea training on the Hong Kong Guardship, HMS Chichester, in the days when we had a Hong Kong Squadron, the CO was a Driver (Airframe(Maritime)). At this distance, I cannot recall if he was fixed or rotary wing and I probably never had the temerity to ask, but he was good at his job.

[Finningley Boy]

Thanks Ninthace and Bengo, no disrespect to the Light Blue, but I had a feeling there was a particularly high expectation, certainly if you were going to advance beyond Lt that, and there being little time to qualify, needed to get time on the Bridge of anything from a Minesweeper to a Carrier. I'd regard Submariners as something less of a leap, but same again.

FB

[MENELAUS]

General list officers ( as opposed to supplementary list shags ) tended to dip their toe in to the water with a reasonably short flying tour, then, because they were destined for greater things, go off and do their Bridge watchkeeping certificates, PWO, Long Nav courses, drive a sweeper, patrol craft etc. Invariably, but by no means always, they would subsequently return after Command exams to their aviation background as executive officers on a Squadron, be it CO, Splot/ SOBs etc. The other route to squadron command was to transfer from SL to GL. You could not be eligible for promotion to Cdr as an SL officer for example. In recent years, as the FAA has shrunk dramatically, and become very top heavy at the Cdr/ Captain ranks, that requirement was relaxed.
I’ve known quite a few pilot and observer captains of frigates and destroyers, although the example of an F4 driver being given command of a Leander is purely for the benefit of the scriptwriters. There wasn’t exactly a surfeit of F4 drivers for one thing.
When we had real carriers, former fixed wing aviators were given command of them, think RLM on Hermes for example. However the Eagle and the old Ark were commanded by a submariner and a gunnery officer respectively.
The current 1st Sea Lord is both an observer and a PWO; that in of itself not that unusual as the two roles complement each other. And I believe the lists have now been combined.

[Bengo]

Originally Posted by Finningley Boy

Thanks Ninthace and Bengo, no disrespect to the Light Blue, but I had a feeling there was a particularly high expectation, certainly if you were going to advance beyond Lt that, and there being little time to qualify, needed to get time on the Bridge of anything from a Minesweeper to a Carrier. I'd regard Submariners as something less of a leap, but same again.

FB

Submariners was a little different. First pass Perisher ( or return to General Service with zero promotion prospects and a bottle of Scotch for the journey) then appointed either as XO of a SSN or BN, or for the lucky ones as CO of a Diesel boat when they existed, then a SSN or BN
Command. Some got two goes. The real stars then went to a surface command as a Captain and for the potential 1SL's another command of a major surface unit.

N

[MENELAUS]

Yea all true. And a submariner led the Falklands campaign. Very astutely too.
By way of example, and the sun dodger world was a prime example of whole ship knowledge, I, as an aviator, was expected to watch keep and get my ticket on a small ship. The rationale was it would probably save your, or somebody else’s, life some day. By the same token all GL officers were meant to aspire to ship command some day; didn’t really matter if it was a FI patrol boat or a Type 22. To some extent dependant on their specializations, or just down to what was going begging at the time. The fact that they included flying in their resumés was something of an aside.

[steamchicken]

To be fair, a submariner led the overall campaign, another commanded the carrier group, and an aviator led the amphibious force. The submarines came under a submariner but one who had previously been a cruiser captain and Flag Officer, Carriers and Amphibious Ships. Only in Britain...

[SLXOwft]

steamchicken - you beat me to it - the amphibous force was lead by SOBS and later CO 801 NAS Michael Clapp whose essential role in the victory is so often overlooked.

Commands Held:
801_Naval_Air_Squadron
HMS Puncheston, M1174, Ton-class minesweeper
HMS Jaguar (F37)
HMS Leander (F109)
Commodore Amphibious Warfare (COMAW)

[Finningley Boy]

All very revealing everyone, I always thought that anyone with time commanding, climbing through the various positions on the Bridge, or indeed on Submarines was always on a quite steady learning curve. Naval Aviation was always the career background I thought would have to make a sharp change in direction, yet I always imagined Aviators got on somehow, there have been two FAA pilots who have been appointed 1st SL to my knowledge.

FB

[chopper2004]

I always wondered why various skippers of the Invincible class carriers were not pilots or observers while in contrast with USN carrier skippers had to be naval aviators, think it was a regulation going back to nearly a century ago or WW2 at least? If you look at a lot of US NAval aviators, their knowledge of warships is not as vast as out FAA, so am led to believe unless you are going the whole nine yards beyond the cockpit, so to speak could be an Annapolis ring knocker or ROTC grad. Then get sent ti nuclear school and off to command a CVN.

Spoke to one female SH-60B Seahawk driver (Lt Commander) and she said she wasnt keen on Officer Of the Deck (OOD) watchkeeper duties.Likewise with a friend who flew S/UH-3H Sea King for all his 8 year career from a shore base, and a graduate of the old Aviation Officer Candidate School (AOCS) (when it was at Pensacola) he said he knew nowt about what ships the uSN had or anything about them. I know AOCS teaches a little naval traditions, naval justice etc but not much about ship. Not like he or anyone else on his course had to learn walk around a ship like BRNC when on MARL , then answer verbal 100 questions and have 90 per cent pass rate to let you carry on.

Did FAA aviator went onto skipper a destroyer or frigate and after went back to flying duties??

cheers

[Ninthace]

Simples. put the man who understands driving ships in charge of the ship (Captain) and the man who understands driving aircraft in charge of aircraft operations (Commander (Air). That way you get the best of both and the correct priorities Float, Move, Fight, Fly . When I was alive, the RN regarded aircraft as a weapon system rather than an end in itself and worked accordingly.

[SLXOwft]

Originally Posted by chopper2004

Did FAA aviator went onto skipper a destroyer or frigate and after went back to flying duties??

The aforementioned Michael Clapp's command of HMS Puncheston was between his stints as SOBS 801 and CO 801. Given that until recently NAS COs were normally Lt Cdrs, the ships the could have commanded at an earlier point in their careers were pretty much limited to MCMVs and PVs/PBs of various sorts (as Menelaus said).

[alfred_the_great]

Originally Posted by Ninthace

. When I was alive, the RN regarded aircraft as a weapon system rather than an end in itself and worked accordingly.

if you tell crabs that they get very sad.

[Ninthace]

Originally Posted by alfred_the_great

if you tell crabs that they get very sad.

Not really. I have worn both shades of blue and it was clear the the RN was about sea power and the RAF was about air power. That means ships are important to the RN and aircraft to the RAF, which makes sense - you can't aviate if some rotter sinks your airfield.