UK to begin the initial training of Ukrainians for the F-16 this summer
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UK to begin the initial training of Ukrainians for the F-16 this summer
Slight thread drift from the Ukraine war one, but I thought it warrants a mention as not all will read that thread. Really?????????? I wonder how that will effect those in the RAF in holding positions?
https://mezha.media/en/2023/05/15/gr...e-than-200-km/
https://mezha.media/en/2023/05/15/gr...e-than-200-km/
Ukrainian pilots will begin initial flight training this summer, adapting a program currently used by British pilots to give them skills applicable to different types of aircraft. This training complements the UK’s efforts in cooperation with other countries to provide Ukraine with F16 fighter jets.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Listening carefully to Rishi during his current interview, the UK will start training Ukrainian pilots, especially on NATO tactics etc, in cooperation with other allies.
Read into that what you wish.
Read into that what you wish.
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Aviation content:
Re the comments about the low flying jet i posted, they do not operate very high..
Re the comments about the low flying jet i posted, they do not operate very high..
Regarding low flying risks, it is my personal experience (admittedly at groundspeeds under 150kts) that the lower you fly, the easier it is to judge height above ground and obstacles. Buccaneer and Tornado pilots who have operated at low level might wish to comment. Certainly video exists of operations at heights where wingtip vortices are visible on the ground, and I am not aware of any instances of hitting the ground when flying level. Rocket firing dives are another story.
Regarding low flying risks, it is my personal experience (admittedly at groundspeeds under 150kts) that the lower you fly, the easier it is to judge height above ground and obstacles. Buccaneer and Tornado pilots who have operated at low level might wish to comment. Certainly video exists of operations at heights where wingtip vortices are visible on the ground, and I am not aware of any instances of hitting the ground when flying level. Rocket firing dives are another story.
At 150 kts, you can manoeuvre to avoid obstacles whereas at 500 kts, that becomes extremely difficult. Admittedly, some of the terrain in Ukraine is famously flat and if the guys know where the power lines are, they may be better placed to fly very low. There is a balance of risk between enemy defences, which can be fatal and ground impact which almost invariably is!!
Mog
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Just to point out this is a repeat of an offer made back in February, no change.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/02/...jet-transfers/
…In a statement from Sunak’s office, released ahead of a visit to the UK today by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, London said that as part of talks between the two leaders, Sunak “will offer to bolster the UK’s training offer for Ukrainian troops, including expanding it to fighter jet pilots to ensure Ukraine can defend its skies well into the future.”…
“The training will ensure pilots are able to fly sophisticated NATO-standard fighter jets in the future,” Sunak’s Office said. A spokesperson for the office told Breaking Defense it didn’t immediately have more information to share.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/02/...jet-transfers/
…In a statement from Sunak’s office, released ahead of a visit to the UK today by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, London said that as part of talks between the two leaders, Sunak “will offer to bolster the UK’s training offer for Ukrainian troops, including expanding it to fighter jet pilots to ensure Ukraine can defend its skies well into the future.”…
“The training will ensure pilots are able to fly sophisticated NATO-standard fighter jets in the future,” Sunak’s Office said. A spokesperson for the office told Breaking Defense it didn’t immediately have more information to share.
If we accept that an unintended consequence of Putin's SMO could be the end of Russia's capacity and appetite for military aggression for several decades, it might just save their lives. It's rough on Ukrainians, but at least they will have a brighter and more secure future when this is over.
I only hope this thread does not degenerate into another Twootr spat like the main Ukraine one. Which I can't be bothered with and should be merged...well till I see F-16 regularly flying training sorties in the UK.
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This is interesting... Third item.... where when how?
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Ok, is the RAF operating the F-16 (I know it is not, rhetorical question) ?? Did the RAF ever operate the F-16 ? What expertise does the RAF have with this aircraft ?
I daresay there are RAF pilots with F-16 experience, but that's not the point. All that's been announced is UK assistance with training. The exact form that takes remains to be seen. I have to say that this knee-jerk scepticism seems unjustified - every type of military assistance promised by the UK so far has been delivered successfully.
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On a lighter note I cannot understand the new announcement when Ukraine only gave us 4pts in the Eurovision Song Contest, shouldn’t Sweden (12pts) be doing this training 😉
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I gather that the quality of the UK song was such that the award of 4 points might be regarded as an act of incredible kindness...
I daresay there are RAF pilots with F-16 experience, but that's not the point. All that's been announced is UK assistance with training. The exact form that takes remains to be seen. I have to say that this knee-jerk scepticism seems unjustified - every type of military assistance promised by the UK so far has been delivered successfully.
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I thought it was possibly teaching the Ukrainians western, as in NATO style combat training, as in manoeuvres and tactics to teach them western standards prior to flying the F-16?.
I remember reading an article many moons ago re. The exchange visits the US used to do around 2018 where the USA said that in the flying they had to be careful not to give too much away to the Ukrainians as to Western tactics.
Found the article from the US side who flew with them and recommended the F-16 as an upgrade to them way back in 2018 and reference to joint exercises in 2011
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ighter-pilots#
Found part of it. From the Ukrainians side, link to article after the quote.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...r-over-ukraine
..
I remember reading an article many moons ago re. The exchange visits the US used to do around 2018 where the USA said that in the flying they had to be careful not to give too much away to the Ukrainians as to Western tactics.
Found the article from the US side who flew with them and recommended the F-16 as an upgrade to them way back in 2018 and reference to joint exercises in 2011
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ighter-pilots#
Found part of it. From the Ukrainians side, link to article after the quote.
The Ukrainian Air Force learned yet more valuable lessons during exercises with the U.S. Air Force, particularly the Clear Sky series of drills, the biggest of which in 2018 was the first-ever joint multinational exercise hosted by Ukraine. Here, the regular sparring partners for the Ukrainian were the F-15Cs of the California Air National Guard’s 144th Fighter Wing, while the Polish Air Force participated too.
For the first time since Ukraine gained independence in 1991, Clear Sky gave the air force the opportunity to see the inner workings of NATO tactics on home soil. Pilots like Juice got a much better understanding of the NATO fighter pilot mindset, leadership roles, and standards. Once again, the importance of operational flexibility was paramount, in order to be able to take the fight to a much more advanced enemy — namely, Russia.
While the F-15s that took part in the Clear Sky maneuvers were older than the Ukrainian MiGs, they had been significantly modernized and were judged much more capable than the local MiG-29s and Su-27s, which have undergone only modest and piecemeal upgrades.
During Clear Sky, the F-15s were used to replicate the tactics and performance of Russian Su-30 and Su-35S Flanker fighters to do battle against the Ukrainian MiG-29s and Su-27s. The Eagles, with their modern tactics, radars, and missiles, were a good stand-in for the new-generation Flankers, but the Ukrainians were “sometimes pretty successful, just using our flexibility and creation of non-standard decisions,” Juice recalled. The experience has several parallels with the infamous Cope India exercise, in which U.S. Air Force F-15s met upgraded Indian MiG-21s with some surprising results.
Speaking to The War Zone, recently-retired Jonathan ‘Jersey’ Burd, the lead planner for the 2018 Clear Sky exercise, recalled: “We did plenty of [basic fighter maneuvers] with our F-15Cs against their MiG-29s and Su-27s and to be honest we could tell instantly that their pilots were very good. They are very tactically inventive, they know their airframes and also understand what they are lacking. I mean, they fly old jets. Our F-15s for example are old airframes, but they have been constantly upgraded with new avionics.”All participants in these exercises became much more ready to meet this enemy in the air and just to know sometimes not to engage under certain conditions, for example, or to engage in some specific ways,” Juice continued. So useful was the 144th Fighter Wing’s involvement, and their sharing of methods to defeat Russian tactics, that, for Juice, it might have made the difference between life and death for some of his fellow pilots: “Maybe that’s why our guys are still alive,” he mused.
Clear Sky also brought new terminology to the Ukrainians, including the first experiences of conducting all missions using only English brevity radio communications. Today, combat missions use the Ukrainian language, however. Another new development was more intensive debriefing after missions, with small debriefs and a larger, conference-style after-action debrief, a vital part of modern air warfare, but one that was new for the Ukrainians.
All in all, the exposure to the U.S. Air Force and NATO way of doing things made a significant impression on the Ukrainian Air Force, but it also highlighted deficiencies in the service that were not so easy to address. Namely, the need for new-generation fighter aircraft. “Even if you’re trained, even if you’re very smart, if you don’t have the right tools, unfortunately, you can’t be effective,” Juice contends. “That’s why we’re trying to ask the West to provide us with some new stuff. New jets, new ground-to-air defenses, etc.”
So far, Ukraine's quest for new jets has proven elusive, and international efforts to deliver additional surface-to-air missile systems have been more successful. Meanwhile, Juice notes that the air force is still in touch with the 144th Fighter Wing, which is providing informal advice as well as items of personal equipment that the pilots need.
For the first time since Ukraine gained independence in 1991, Clear Sky gave the air force the opportunity to see the inner workings of NATO tactics on home soil. Pilots like Juice got a much better understanding of the NATO fighter pilot mindset, leadership roles, and standards. Once again, the importance of operational flexibility was paramount, in order to be able to take the fight to a much more advanced enemy — namely, Russia.
While the F-15s that took part in the Clear Sky maneuvers were older than the Ukrainian MiGs, they had been significantly modernized and were judged much more capable than the local MiG-29s and Su-27s, which have undergone only modest and piecemeal upgrades.
During Clear Sky, the F-15s were used to replicate the tactics and performance of Russian Su-30 and Su-35S Flanker fighters to do battle against the Ukrainian MiG-29s and Su-27s. The Eagles, with their modern tactics, radars, and missiles, were a good stand-in for the new-generation Flankers, but the Ukrainians were “sometimes pretty successful, just using our flexibility and creation of non-standard decisions,” Juice recalled. The experience has several parallels with the infamous Cope India exercise, in which U.S. Air Force F-15s met upgraded Indian MiG-21s with some surprising results.
Speaking to The War Zone, recently-retired Jonathan ‘Jersey’ Burd, the lead planner for the 2018 Clear Sky exercise, recalled: “We did plenty of [basic fighter maneuvers] with our F-15Cs against their MiG-29s and Su-27s and to be honest we could tell instantly that their pilots were very good. They are very tactically inventive, they know their airframes and also understand what they are lacking. I mean, they fly old jets. Our F-15s for example are old airframes, but they have been constantly upgraded with new avionics.”All participants in these exercises became much more ready to meet this enemy in the air and just to know sometimes not to engage under certain conditions, for example, or to engage in some specific ways,” Juice continued. So useful was the 144th Fighter Wing’s involvement, and their sharing of methods to defeat Russian tactics, that, for Juice, it might have made the difference between life and death for some of his fellow pilots: “Maybe that’s why our guys are still alive,” he mused.
Clear Sky also brought new terminology to the Ukrainians, including the first experiences of conducting all missions using only English brevity radio communications. Today, combat missions use the Ukrainian language, however. Another new development was more intensive debriefing after missions, with small debriefs and a larger, conference-style after-action debrief, a vital part of modern air warfare, but one that was new for the Ukrainians.
All in all, the exposure to the U.S. Air Force and NATO way of doing things made a significant impression on the Ukrainian Air Force, but it also highlighted deficiencies in the service that were not so easy to address. Namely, the need for new-generation fighter aircraft. “Even if you’re trained, even if you’re very smart, if you don’t have the right tools, unfortunately, you can’t be effective,” Juice contends. “That’s why we’re trying to ask the West to provide us with some new stuff. New jets, new ground-to-air defenses, etc.”
So far, Ukraine's quest for new jets has proven elusive, and international efforts to deliver additional surface-to-air missile systems have been more successful. Meanwhile, Juice notes that the air force is still in touch with the 144th Fighter Wing, which is providing informal advice as well as items of personal equipment that the pilots need.
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Last edited by NutLoose; 15th May 2023 at 22:50.