Eject! Eject! - John Nichol
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Age: 54
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Cheers for responding John, I have indeed given up on Twitter as a bad lot.
I accept your points that you do mention, loosely, the Armourers and at least one parachute packer and I understand that "This one time I took a parachute out of its seat, serviced it and repacked it" isn't going to get you onto the Sunday Times bestseller list but I still feel when writing a book about a piece of kit which essentially involves two trades to maintain, it's remiss to not even name one of those trades.
In my day Tornado seats were pulled every six months for servicing, of course other aircraft and nations might be different.
We serviced 'chutes with absolutely meticulous care, literally by the book in as much that if a supervisor walked by any the AP wasn't at the same point as the packing process then they'd expect you to start again. It didn't matter if it was the first or the fiftieth chute you'd packed.
I just think it's a shame you couldn't trust your readers enough to step back from the dramatic to give a bit of insight into that process.
Of course, I'm biased and tetchy because none of you growbags ever had the manners to use one of mine!
I accept your points that you do mention, loosely, the Armourers and at least one parachute packer and I understand that "This one time I took a parachute out of its seat, serviced it and repacked it" isn't going to get you onto the Sunday Times bestseller list but I still feel when writing a book about a piece of kit which essentially involves two trades to maintain, it's remiss to not even name one of those trades.
In my day Tornado seats were pulled every six months for servicing, of course other aircraft and nations might be different.
We serviced 'chutes with absolutely meticulous care, literally by the book in as much that if a supervisor walked by any the AP wasn't at the same point as the packing process then they'd expect you to start again. It didn't matter if it was the first or the fiftieth chute you'd packed.
I just think it's a shame you couldn't trust your readers enough to step back from the dramatic to give a bit of insight into that process.
Of course, I'm biased and tetchy because none of you growbags ever had the manners to use one of mine!
The following users liked this post:
I was fortunate enough to win a place visiting M-B both at Denham and at Chalgrove on 13 August 2019 thanks to the Honourable Company of Air Pilots. Whilst in the 'chute packing room, we'd been told that we must NOT touch the parachute material. But someone did, so the 'chute had to be given a thorough check before it could be supplied to the customer...
The formation Meteor flying at Chalgrove was excellent!!
The formation Meteor flying at Chalgrove was excellent!!
The following 3 users liked this post by BEagle:
Tash
I have a certain understanding for where you're coming from but have to fall on the side of considering that you're being quite unfair to John (Who i think made a very reasonable response to you on this which you chose to be rather ungracious about).
This is a book specifically about the experiences and subsequent journeys of those who have pulled the handle. It's not a history of the Ejection Seat and its development (of which many books have been written).
It is an examination of what happened to the people who got themselves the black and yellow tie (or equivalent).
What's next?
The ATC people complaining that there is no mention of them in the stories of assistance, location, and survival?
The SAR crews huffing about not being mentioned for picking up the survivors after their rocket assisted let-downs.
The paramedics, doctors, nurses and physios complaining that they are not recognised for their part in the survival and recovery process?
I think you should accept that this book is about a specific story of the "growbags" who used - in anger - the kit which you conscientiously prepared. Think about the conditions in which you prepared that kit then think about the conditions in which they used it.
I think you do yourself and your trade no justice in this discussion and it smacks. quite frankly, of sour grapes and not enough other things to worry about.
OH - Out.
I have a certain understanding for where you're coming from but have to fall on the side of considering that you're being quite unfair to John (Who i think made a very reasonable response to you on this which you chose to be rather ungracious about).
This is a book specifically about the experiences and subsequent journeys of those who have pulled the handle. It's not a history of the Ejection Seat and its development (of which many books have been written).
It is an examination of what happened to the people who got themselves the black and yellow tie (or equivalent).
What's next?
The ATC people complaining that there is no mention of them in the stories of assistance, location, and survival?
The SAR crews huffing about not being mentioned for picking up the survivors after their rocket assisted let-downs.
The paramedics, doctors, nurses and physios complaining that they are not recognised for their part in the survival and recovery process?
I think you should accept that this book is about a specific story of the "growbags" who used - in anger - the kit which you conscientiously prepared. Think about the conditions in which you prepared that kit then think about the conditions in which they used it.
I think you do yourself and your trade no justice in this discussion and it smacks. quite frankly, of sour grapes and not enough other things to worry about.
OH - Out.
Last edited by OvertHawk; 18th Dec 2023 at 09:47. Reason: spelling
Cheers for responding John, I have indeed given up on Twitter as a bad lot.
I accept your points that you do mention, loosely, the Armourers and at least one parachute packer and I understand that "This one time I took a parachute out of its seat, serviced it and repacked it" isn't going to get you onto the Sunday Times bestseller list but I still feel when writing a book about a piece of kit which essentially involves two trades to maintain, it's remiss to not even name one of those trades.
In my day Tornado seats were pulled every six months for servicing, of course other aircraft and nations might be different.
We serviced 'chutes with absolutely meticulous care, literally by the book in as much that if a supervisor walked by any the AP wasn't at the same point as the packing process then they'd expect you to start again. It didn't matter if it was the first or the fiftieth chute you'd packed.
I just think it's a shame you couldn't trust your readers enough to step back from the dramatic to give a bit of insight into that process.
Of course, I'm biased and tetchy because none of you growbags ever had the manners to use one of mine!
I accept your points that you do mention, loosely, the Armourers and at least one parachute packer and I understand that "This one time I took a parachute out of its seat, serviced it and repacked it" isn't going to get you onto the Sunday Times bestseller list but I still feel when writing a book about a piece of kit which essentially involves two trades to maintain, it's remiss to not even name one of those trades.
In my day Tornado seats were pulled every six months for servicing, of course other aircraft and nations might be different.
We serviced 'chutes with absolutely meticulous care, literally by the book in as much that if a supervisor walked by any the AP wasn't at the same point as the packing process then they'd expect you to start again. It didn't matter if it was the first or the fiftieth chute you'd packed.
I just think it's a shame you couldn't trust your readers enough to step back from the dramatic to give a bit of insight into that process.
Of course, I'm biased and tetchy because none of you growbags ever had the manners to use one of mine!
Indeed it is stories of those that got into the MB range of seats and had to use them either to survive, be badly injured or die due to the circumstances of their escape or non escape and the aftermath. I take the book as that and John has mentioned the basics of seat design and maintenance in the book. Only needs saying once.
The following 2 users liked this post by Diff Tail Shim:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,585
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
Some extra MB seat history in this book review from recent AEROSPACE magazine Nov 2023. Excerpt below - GIF shows review.
EJECT! EJECT! Escape from the aircraft is just the beginning By John Nichol [BOOK REVIEW by Brian A Miller OBE] AEROSPACE Nov 2023
"...The earliest testing and development is generally well covered but the later addition of a rocket to give zero speed and zero altitude performance is incorrect. In January 1961, I [Brian A Miller] joined the small team developing the rocket seat, just four months before Doddy Hay’s history-making zero-zero ejection with an experimental rocket seat that was never intended to go into production. Using an ejection gun to propel seats had reached its limit because any more thrust would cause serious injury to the ejectee. Only a gun and rocket combination could provide more thrust without the risk of injury. Zero-zero ejection was a by-product, not the aim, of the new rocket seat.
There is no mention of John Fifield, Martin-Baker’s Chief Test pilot’s major contribution to the development of the Mk 4 ejection seat which established a world benchmark for crew escape. John made test ejections at 40,000 feet and at 90 knots on the runway, where there was no chance of surviving should the seat malfunction. It was his ground level ejection in 1955 that caught the attention of the United States’ Navy and resulted in the development of the strengthened Mk 5 seat which the US Navy fitted in nearly all their combat aircraft, including the Phantom, of which over 5,000 were produced (the first five having the Stanley seat).
The under-seat rocket motor deserved more than a mention as it was an essential development that made the rocket seat practical. It was easily retrofitted to the large fleet of Martin-Baker seats in service so that a customer could update their seats without the cost of replacing the whole seat. Sir James Martin was the overall concept designer and the man responsible for the revolutionary rocket itself was Chief Technician Alan Rowlett-Jones. Having been told by the Rocket Research Establishment that such a rocket could never work, he proved them wrong...."
EJECT! EJECT! Escape from the aircraft is just the beginning By John Nichol [BOOK REVIEW by Brian A Miller OBE] AEROSPACE Nov 2023
"...The earliest testing and development is generally well covered but the later addition of a rocket to give zero speed and zero altitude performance is incorrect. In January 1961, I [Brian A Miller] joined the small team developing the rocket seat, just four months before Doddy Hay’s history-making zero-zero ejection with an experimental rocket seat that was never intended to go into production. Using an ejection gun to propel seats had reached its limit because any more thrust would cause serious injury to the ejectee. Only a gun and rocket combination could provide more thrust without the risk of injury. Zero-zero ejection was a by-product, not the aim, of the new rocket seat.
There is no mention of John Fifield, Martin-Baker’s Chief Test pilot’s major contribution to the development of the Mk 4 ejection seat which established a world benchmark for crew escape. John made test ejections at 40,000 feet and at 90 knots on the runway, where there was no chance of surviving should the seat malfunction. It was his ground level ejection in 1955 that caught the attention of the United States’ Navy and resulted in the development of the strengthened Mk 5 seat which the US Navy fitted in nearly all their combat aircraft, including the Phantom, of which over 5,000 were produced (the first five having the Stanley seat).
The under-seat rocket motor deserved more than a mention as it was an essential development that made the rocket seat practical. It was easily retrofitted to the large fleet of Martin-Baker seats in service so that a customer could update their seats without the cost of replacing the whole seat. Sir James Martin was the overall concept designer and the man responsible for the revolutionary rocket itself was Chief Technician Alan Rowlett-Jones. Having been told by the Rocket Research Establishment that such a rocket could never work, he proved them wrong...."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 24th Dec 2023 at 01:04. Reason: wayward ]
Indeed it is stories of those that got into the MB range of seats and had to use them either to survive, be badly injured or die due to the circumstances of their escape or non escape and the aftermath. I take the book as that and John has mentioned the basics of seat design and maintenance in the book. Only needs saying once.
I had two friends who ejected from a Buccaneer and their lives were changed both physically and (I suspect) mentally. Mr. Nichol's book begins with the bang, not with the brilliant design work which developed the bang.
The following users liked this post:
I found that review irksome and ungracious. Mr Nichol has obviously put a lot of time and effort into his research, and when discussing designs going back to the 1940s it's probably impossible to get every detail right. I was reminded of David Hill's book RED 5 in which he explains how recent corporate memory was lost of the evidence proving the company innocent in the Flt Lt Sean Cunningham case. When that happens you've got to rely on peoples' memory, and minor mistakes or omissions are inevitable. And I can't see any author being able to interview every person involved, especially when most are probably deceased. A private note offering help to correct any errors would have been the better way.
No history can ever be perfect because human error or episodial memory is not fool proof. As John said, it is not the technical history of assisted aircraft escape systems and lots of the stories, the seat is a small slither of ham in the sandwich of each story.
Emergency escape parachutes were not alone Tash, as you know there was also parachute harnesses, single seat life rafts, personal survival packs, survival aids and locator beacons, immersion suits, life preservers and helmets. All kit that essentially assists aircrew survival post leaving the aircraft and was lovingly maintained by ‘the squippers’. So the bomb head bit is the easy part (just kidding St Babs crowd).
I’m just glad that many of ‘our’ aircrew got out and survived to return to their family and friends, our reward (no that one was expect or needed) was that they always (to a man) came in post ejection and said thank you to the Arm Eng flight individuals who had a hand in their escape (armourers and squippers).
Unfortunately one didn’t make it and is always remembered. L
I’m just glad that many of ‘our’ aircrew got out and survived to return to their family and friends, our reward (no that one was expect or needed) was that they always (to a man) came in post ejection and said thank you to the Arm Eng flight individuals who had a hand in their escape (armourers and squippers).
Unfortunately one didn’t make it and is always remembered. L
Cheers for responding John, I have indeed given up on Twitter as a bad lot.
I accept your points that you do mention, loosely, the Armourers and at least one parachute packer and I understand that "This one time I took a parachute out of its seat, serviced it and repacked it" isn't going to get you onto the Sunday Times bestseller list but I still feel when writing a book about a piece of kit which essentially involves two trades to maintain, it's remiss to not even name one of those trades.
In my day Tornado seats were pulled every six months for servicing, of course other aircraft and nations might be different.
We serviced 'chutes with absolutely meticulous care, literally by the book in as much that if a supervisor walked by any the AP wasn't at the same point as the packing process then they'd expect you to start again. It didn't matter if it was the first or the fiftieth chute you'd packed.
I just think it's a shame you couldn't trust your readers enough to step back from the dramatic to give a bit of insight into that process.
Of course, I'm biased and tetchy because none of you growbags ever had the manners to use one of mine!
I accept your points that you do mention, loosely, the Armourers and at least one parachute packer and I understand that "This one time I took a parachute out of its seat, serviced it and repacked it" isn't going to get you onto the Sunday Times bestseller list but I still feel when writing a book about a piece of kit which essentially involves two trades to maintain, it's remiss to not even name one of those trades.
In my day Tornado seats were pulled every six months for servicing, of course other aircraft and nations might be different.
We serviced 'chutes with absolutely meticulous care, literally by the book in as much that if a supervisor walked by any the AP wasn't at the same point as the packing process then they'd expect you to start again. It didn't matter if it was the first or the fiftieth chute you'd packed.
I just think it's a shame you couldn't trust your readers enough to step back from the dramatic to give a bit of insight into that process.
Of course, I'm biased and tetchy because none of you growbags ever had the manners to use one of mine!
The following users liked this post:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,585
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
Thought safety equipment maintainers & aircrew might enjoy these snippets from a recent Martin-Baker article.
Exit strategy AEROSPACE Jul 2023
"How do you design and manufacture an item that has saved 7,697 lives to date? CHARLOTTE BAILEY visits Martin-Baker’s manufacture and test facilities at Denham and Chalgrove to explore the ultimate in emergency egress options....
...Overall, the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom has helped the most aircrew earn the coveted ‘Tie Club’ accessory (2,476, in fact) something all ejectees are eligible to receive subject to two individual points of verification (ladies are awarded a brooch). While most have only endured a process likened to ‘a fairground ride gone wrong’ once, some 173 people have punched out twice, nine three times, while two individuals can lay claim to being the world’s only quadruple ejectees....
...advanced design developments now offer parachute deployment within around 0.3 seconds. A unique aeroconical shape (allowing air to spill out radially and from the hole in the apex), as well as the varying porosity of certain panels, is also key.
...‘Chute happens
Seat design has, accordingly, evolved to accommodate updated parachute placement. Early refinements repositioned it towards the top of the seat in a ‘headbox’, which could shoot the parachute out in around a second and a half. These days, the entire container deploys and, in the case of the Lockheed Martin F-35, it is fired at 35 degrees to further hasten inflation.
Parachute packing has also evolved significantly since the early days of ‘folding and rolling’ (when parachutes were inherently smaller) and a rotaryscrew device, akin to a wine-press, was sufficient to pack the Mk.7-10 parachutes into their boxes. These days, 12 specialist presses use up to three tons of pressure to squeeze them into a type-specific series of shapes (known as ‘furniture’) from the rhombic F-35 to the square T-38 container, a delicate process taking three days and two nights so as not to risk damaging the end product. Elsewhere in the factory, a separate facility inspects and packs the drogue, designed to stabilise the seat before the main parachute deploys....
...The US16E was the first to dispense with traditional arming pins (except for maintenance purposes). Instead, a single safety handle blocks the firing handle – along with the F-35B auto-eject system – until activated by the pilot prior to flight. Currently in development are variants of the Mk.16...
...What’s next?
Despite intense competition and scrutiny, the F-35 seat has been a big success story not only for Martin-Baker but the seven out of seven successful ejections made to date. As well as the 1,104 examples delivered at the time of writing, 100-plus simulator seats have also been specially formulated for the synthetic training environment. Although the F-35 represents Martin-Baker’s fourth largest fleet in service, it is predicted to overtake the F/A-18 Hornet currently taking the top spot...."
Exit strategy AEROSPACE Jul 2023
"How do you design and manufacture an item that has saved 7,697 lives to date? CHARLOTTE BAILEY visits Martin-Baker’s manufacture and test facilities at Denham and Chalgrove to explore the ultimate in emergency egress options....
...Overall, the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom has helped the most aircrew earn the coveted ‘Tie Club’ accessory (2,476, in fact) something all ejectees are eligible to receive subject to two individual points of verification (ladies are awarded a brooch). While most have only endured a process likened to ‘a fairground ride gone wrong’ once, some 173 people have punched out twice, nine three times, while two individuals can lay claim to being the world’s only quadruple ejectees....
...advanced design developments now offer parachute deployment within around 0.3 seconds. A unique aeroconical shape (allowing air to spill out radially and from the hole in the apex), as well as the varying porosity of certain panels, is also key.
...‘Chute happens
Seat design has, accordingly, evolved to accommodate updated parachute placement. Early refinements repositioned it towards the top of the seat in a ‘headbox’, which could shoot the parachute out in around a second and a half. These days, the entire container deploys and, in the case of the Lockheed Martin F-35, it is fired at 35 degrees to further hasten inflation.
Parachute packing has also evolved significantly since the early days of ‘folding and rolling’ (when parachutes were inherently smaller) and a rotaryscrew device, akin to a wine-press, was sufficient to pack the Mk.7-10 parachutes into their boxes. These days, 12 specialist presses use up to three tons of pressure to squeeze them into a type-specific series of shapes (known as ‘furniture’) from the rhombic F-35 to the square T-38 container, a delicate process taking three days and two nights so as not to risk damaging the end product. Elsewhere in the factory, a separate facility inspects and packs the drogue, designed to stabilise the seat before the main parachute deploys....
...The US16E was the first to dispense with traditional arming pins (except for maintenance purposes). Instead, a single safety handle blocks the firing handle – along with the F-35B auto-eject system – until activated by the pilot prior to flight. Currently in development are variants of the Mk.16...
...What’s next?
Despite intense competition and scrutiny, the F-35 seat has been a big success story not only for Martin-Baker but the seven out of seven successful ejections made to date. As well as the 1,104 examples delivered at the time of writing, 100-plus simulator seats have also been specially formulated for the synthetic training environment. Although the F-35 represents Martin-Baker’s fourth largest fleet in service, it is predicted to overtake the F/A-18 Hornet currently taking the top spot...."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 26th Dec 2023 at 18:36. Reason: punc
The following 2 users liked this post by SpazSinbad:
Books purchased for more than short-term entertainment do find room on the four more bookshelves I've purchased in the last year - lots of room left!
The following 3 users liked this post by Davef68:
The following users liked this post:
I bought the paper copy so it would be prominent in my bookshelf in memory of the MB Mk 4s I had strapped into over the years.
Enjoyed the read, especially that of the early development.
Enjoyed the read, especially that of the early development.
The following users liked this post:
The following users liked this post:
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,812
Received 137 Likes
on
64 Posts
For anyone who doesn't yet have this excellent tome, it's 99p for the Kindle version on Amazon Uk today
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eject-John-...dp/139850940X/
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eject-John-...dp/139850940X/
The following users liked this post:
I found that review irksome and ungracious. Mr Nichol has obviously put a lot of time and effort into his research, and when discussing designs going back to the 1940s it's probably impossible to get every detail right. I was reminded of David Hill's book RED 5 in which he explains how recent corporate memory was lost of the evidence proving the company innocent in the Flt Lt Sean Cunningham case. When that happens you've got to rely on peoples' memory, and minor mistakes or omissions are inevitable. And I can't see any author being able to interview every person involved, especially when most are probably deceased. A private note offering help to correct any errors would have been the better way.
