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Old 26th Apr 2023, 18:34
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Decca.....the style with the scrolling moving map and stylus thingy......if you had arms like an Octopus and there was no static electricity in the same hemisphere....and the ambient Temp where the scroll map was located was near freezing....it was just about useless....but with any of the other factors present....utterly useless. if single pilot and you had to make a chart change or worse yet.....a Key Change which required a system reset it could get interesting. My usual luck in the Summer was usually the weather was not too bad but upon getting it done....the sticky tape holding the scroll map together would come unstuck and one end of the scroll made like a runaway old fashioned roll up window shade leaving the map unusable .

I take my Hat off to anyone that could, while single pilot at night in a Wessex/S-58T/Whirlwind, do the snake charming necessary to change from an enroute chart to the Decca Approach to Sumburgh in the Shetlands, while flying with your knees and dealing with changing the chart, key, and decometers in under twenty attempts.

I found a standard paper Decca Chart and using the Decometers alone worked a treat and proved to be very accurate.....nothing like flying a "Decca Arc" approach combined with a Rig NDB and cross checking it all with the onboard Radar.

I also found the last CONSOL station in Norway to be useful in departing the Ekofisk headed back to Teeside.
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Old 26th Apr 2023, 20:59
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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I stripped a complete Decca system out of a Piper Aztec many many moons ago and the weight of the cabling alone weighed a ton weight.
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Old 26th Apr 2023, 22:34
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I never saw the Puma/TANS moving map doodah in use outside the OCU ground school. (Do I recall a stowage for it in the cabin?)

CG
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 05:14
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Originally Posted by Hydromet
It may or may not be true, but I was told that when the Australian Army allowed women to go into field roles, they had to change their ways of teaching navigation, as women navigated differently too men. Someone here may know whether or not that's true.
This paper is relevant:
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/how-men...are-different/


Navigation studies in both humans and rats show that females of both species tend to rely on landmarks, while males more typically rely on “dead reckoning”: calculating one’s position by estimating the direction and distance traveled rather than using landmarks.
I remember an experiment at my university where a Psychology lecturer asked his students to draw a map of how to get from one part of the campus to another. The results supported the quote above. Male student's maps were spatially accurate but lacking in detail, but the female student's maps were the opposite - lots of detail and information to help with enroute navigation but poor spatial accuracy.
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 09:42
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by charliegolf
I never saw the Puma/TANS moving map doodah in use outside the OCU ground school. (Do I recall a stowage for it in the cabin?)

CG

I saw it in use on the OCU, a Sgt loady instructor, took it flying, I cannot remember his name., yes there was a stowage, i think it was the back wall of the cockpit, back of the central instrument panel or in the tunnel?
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 10:08
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Originally Posted by India Four Two
I remember an experiment at my university where a Psychology lecturer asked his students to draw a map of how to get from one part of the campus to another. The results supported the quote above. Male student's maps were spatially accurate but lacking in detail, but the female student's maps were the opposite - lots of detail and information to help with enroute navigation but poor spatial accuracy.
It kind-of makes sense if you consider that we evolved as hunter-gatherers. Following gender norms, women would have been foraging in familiar areas, whereas men would have been pursuing animals wherever they chose to go and would then need to find their way home.
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 10:50
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M/F Differences

Car navigation. My wife uses place/street names. I use landmarks/spatial awareness.
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 11:00
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The RAF are renowned for their navigation skills and map reading, often using poor or inadequate maps bereft of any detail, have you seen some of the Hotel direction maps in their brochures these days, shocking, I sometimes wondered how we ever found the Hotels...
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 11:07
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Navigation studies in both humans and rats show that females of both species tend to rely on landmarks, while males more typically rely on “dead reckoning”: calculating one’s position by estimating the direction and distance traveled rather than using landmarks.
That ringas a bell with what I was told. Back when I was very new in my career, my immediate boss was suddenly tasked to go to a place we had not been to before, in the middle of the bush. He met up with a colleague who had been there often, on a weekend at a club. Over a large number of beers, he was given distance and direction instructions (e.g. take left fork in road for 2.3 miles...)that were spot on.
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 11:52
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https://link.springer.com/article/10...23-019-01659-w

Gender differences in spatial navigation: Characterizing wayfinding behaviors
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 12:58
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Whilst there is a statistical gender difference in the way that orientation and navigation is achieved it is not an absolute difference. Men still use spatial orientation and women still use features, just not as much as the inverse. Some of each sex are really bad navigators, but it's a skill that can be taught.
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 13:11
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
The RAF are renowned for their navigation skills and map reading, often using poor or inadequate maps bereft of any detail, have you seen some of the Hotel direction maps in their brochures these days, shocking, I sometimes wondered how we ever found the Hotels...
A dwindling band will recall a form used by the V-Force, F2130 Nav Radar Bombing Report. I once read one that included in the Remarks section:

As latest available mapping was dated 1945, suggest score be adjusted by 25 years

Seemed reasonable.

YS
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 13:21
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In my early days on the water as a mate on a 56 foot Snapper Boat (bottom fishing by hook and line) we navigated on transits by means of a depth finder and hand held transistor radio using standard commercial AM broadcast stations.

If we were trying to be "precise" we might include the boat's heading using the Compass.

Later we moved up to using LORAN with a receiver that used an oscilloscope display to determine what lines we were on (similar to DECCA) to return to good fishing spots.

Now today...the guys use GPS and all of the fun is taken out of the exercise.

Even now we use landmarks or Stars when running at night even with the GPS.

The GPS gives you the desired track to the next turn....and the landmark gives you a visual steering point for holding a steady heading.

From my Army days....it is possible to follow a fellow Soldiers Mess Kit.

Pouring rain at night compounded by the need for Light Discipline meant getting under another guys Poncho to allow reading a map by flashlight and using a compass to orient the map.....in close proximity to his Back Pack and assorted gear which attracted the Compass.....can you say the word "Lost"?
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 15:24
  #114 (permalink)  

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I normally have excellent spatial awareness. One notable exception was after a formation flight to Denmark got diverted due to very poor weather. We arrived in the dark and our aircraft was the last to be refuelled. The rest of the detachment had already gone by taxi from the airport to a hotel which had been organised by the handling agent. Our taxi was waiting and had been briefed where to take us (we knew not which hotel) and we were whisked away in short order. As we arrived at said hotel, we were met in reception and given room keys by the flight commander who was already in civvies. He told us to straight up to get changed and out again because food had been organised at a local hostelry who had agreed to stay open late for us. A minibus was waiting outside. We got changed in a couple of minutes, went down to the hotel lobby and got straight on board and away, ten minutes drive. After the meal someone suggested we went to a pub somewhere else in town. Another bus took us there. As we knew we wouldn’t be flying the following day a few drinks were consumed. The flight commander then suddenly said that the minibus was outside to take us back to the hotel. I needed a last minute trip to the gents and asked a mate to hold the bus for two minutes. When I came out, the minibus had gone and I was alone! It was then I realised I’d not actually noticed the name of the hotel. No problem, thought I, I have the room key fob which would have the name of hotel. It didn’t!

I looked left and right and decided to go right. I walked, then jogged for what was probably about four miles without recognising the hotel then suddenly realised I’d reached the edge of town and had no option but to retrace my steps. It took me forty five minutes to get back to the pub. I then decided to go past it and try again. I crossed the road 100 metres further on and noticed I was outside the correct hotel…
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 17:15
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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That sounds like the famous Hotel Ingang on Einbahnstrasse in Ausfart. Been there!
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 20:58
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Originally Posted by MPN11
That sounds like the famous Hotel Ingang on Einbahnstrasse in Ausfart. Been there!
Rule # 1 in Daze of Yore
First thing you did upon entry to your accommodation: Always grab a book of hotel matches and keep them with you. They all have the name, address and phone number on them. If lost and/or disorientated show them to the taxi driver, helpful doorman or annoyed police officer. Especially if there is a language problem.
Nowadays they would probably look at you strangely at a hotel desk if you asked for a book of matches.

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Old 27th Apr 2023, 22:31
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A solo stude on my JP course dropped his map during a medium level nav trip, which disappeared under his bang seat, much to his consternation.

After some minutes of bad language he came up with a cunning plan. Turn upside down, push and catch the map as it floats up from wherever it had lodged, then carry on with the trip....

Grunt, shove, snatch, roll - all worked just fine. Until he looked at the g-meter! Ah - bug.ger!

Last edited by BEagle; 27th Apr 2023 at 22:44.
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 23:25
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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I'll probably be accused by some random ex-route-Herc fella of not telling the truth (again), but our basic rotary course on Whirlwinds at Shawbury learned the true value of alert crewmen when one of the 2 MACR crewman instructors happened to look up during an early LL Nav trip being flown by one of the fellas 2 courses ahead of me. This crewman instinctively reached out and grabbed the 1/4 mill chart flying at 80-odd knots that had just made its way out of the open cockpit window then calmly passed it back up between the pilot's legs, mere seconds after the stude started to think he'd failed the trip. ISTR the pilot, who shared his surname with that of a town in the N Midlands, went on to enjoy a career on Bucc's after one token SH tour - no problems with open windows on those, I believe.
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Old 28th Apr 2023, 17:12
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Crossing the Pennines in a Tiger Moth, desired track crossing the fold as usual, there was a sharp crack as I tried to refold the map and it disappeared over my shoulder. It was an interesting trip on to Blackpool but fortunately I knew my railway lines and the steel VOR radials took me safely along the low-level corridor north from Crewe. Very relieved to spot the field, oddly enough dead on time.
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Old 28th Apr 2023, 19:35
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Originally Posted by Thud_and_Blunder
I'll probably be accused by some random ex-route-Herc fella of not telling the truth (again), but our basic rotary course on Whirlwinds at Shawbury learned the true value of alert crewmen when one of the 2 MACR crewman instructors happened to look up during an early LL Nav trip being flown by one of the fellas 2 courses ahead of me. This crewman instinctively reached out and grabbed the 1/4 mill chart flying at 80-odd knots that had just made its way out of the open cockpit window then calmly passed it back up between the pilot's legs, mere seconds after the stude started to think he'd failed the trip. ISTR the pilot, who shared his surname with that of a town in the N Midlands, went on to enjoy a career on Bucc's after one token SH tour - no problems with open windows on those, I believe.
Would that be a town approx 5nm abeam Chesterfield perchance?

If so, it was actually two SH tours.
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