F-35 runway vacated...faster than planned
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
SATCOS WHIPPING,
Sorry but you are wrong. With over 6000 hrs on F4s and Tornado F3 I think that I know this subject quite well.
If a pilot over an F4, Tornado or similar Fast Jet lands “On the Numbers”, but not short of the runway, their hook (if down) will hit the ground in the undershoot and “May” take a barrier in the down position.
Sorry but you are wrong. With over 6000 hrs on F4s and Tornado F3 I think that I know this subject quite well.
If a pilot over an F4, Tornado or similar Fast Jet lands “On the Numbers”, but not short of the runway, their hook (if down) will hit the ground in the undershoot and “May” take a barrier in the down position.
SATCOS WHIPPING,
Sorry but you are wrong. With over 6000 hrs on F4s and Tornado F3 I think that I know this subject quite well.
If a pilot over an F4, Tornado or similar Fast Jet lands “On the Numbers”, but not short of the runway, their hook (if down) will hit the ground in the undershoot and “May” take a barrier in the down position.
Sorry but you are wrong. With over 6000 hrs on F4s and Tornado F3 I think that I know this subject quite well.
If a pilot over an F4, Tornado or similar Fast Jet lands “On the Numbers”, but not short of the runway, their hook (if down) will hit the ground in the undershoot and “May” take a barrier in the down position.
Thought police antagonist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,372
Received 117 Likes
on
84 Posts
Far more interesting will be to find out, why.
Perhaps the driver was on a promise and was trying to get home quick?
Can the B do a "braking nozzles" setting like the Harrier/Sea Harrier could to reduce ground roll? or would that take too much weight off the wheels, reducing braking effectiveness?
Thread Starter
As for well stuck.. It took a big FO crane to hoik it out, not just lashed up to ATC Landrover and pulled backwards.
Dominator2 I bow to your 6000 hrs on fast and pointy things. I won't mention my XX,000+ hours as ATC Supervisor and thankfully never seeing a pilot mess up to the extent of snagging the down approach-end barrier ! . I would be genuinely interested to see a report on one of those. LOL I am not saying it has never happened, I am saying that putting your wheels on the numbers isn't going to result in snagging a down barrier. If it were likely then SATCO would be having a stand up chat with with the Staish as to why the clear approach parameters were not met. That said, I did see a Sea Harrier leave hi sundercarriage at the concrete lip of the runway...oh, hang on...he landed short. ;-)
Generally it is the over-run Cable UP. intention is to snag the upwind wire and prevent an over-run. There is no need in that scenario to slam the hook early and "risk" hitting the numbers and taking the lying-flat-on-the -gorund barrier.
MARHAM standard config is both cables down
LEEMING standard config is both cables down
CONINGSBY standard config is approach down overun up
WADDINGTON standard config is approach derigged overun up
All point at over-run being the favoured UK option. The Americans like approach end engagements though, Plenty of vids on YouBook and FaceTube .
I've seen quite few proper approach end engagements. Never seen the hook get anywher close to a flat barrier (perhaps thankfully) . Saw a Tornado come back to Boscombe trailing effectivley a 50metre hook. It came no where near the fence,
Anyhoo, back on thread. Pilots landing short, or too long is for another day.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
SATCOS WHIPPING,
As regards an Accident Report concerning accidental barrier engagement look for RAF Gutersloh, German F4F from Hopstein AB late 70s, early 80s.
As regards the cable positions I think that “The Americans like approach end engagements” is a rather naive comment. The correct cable to take depends on each aircraft type and the type of emergency, not national preference.
Certainly, the over-run cable is more likely to be required at no notice and so at appropriate Fast Jet bases it is permanently rigged. The approach cable would be required with certain emergencies and normally 10 minutes prior notice is possible. At all competent Fast Jet bases the 10 minute agreement has been standard for years.
Of course, the Americans have had to benefit of the BAK14 for years which can be raised and lowered from the tower. Why was RAF Valley the only Station that had a RHAG with the same capability.
SATCOS WHIPPING, For your interest, but I’m sure that you are aware, not all airfields are quite standard. At RAF Wattisham in the 70s the base operated the Lightning then Phantom ac. Due to the runway being slightly short of 7500 feet (not great for either type) the airfield was equipped with Non standard Type 2 VASIs for a Pilot Eye Height of 13ft 10 ins. The Instrument Touchdown Point was only 1000ft in and the RHAG was only 1200ft in. All of this conspired to encourage pilots to land “On the Numbers”. I believe the Wattisham also had one accident concerning an F4 with the Approach Barrier.
As regards an Accident Report concerning accidental barrier engagement look for RAF Gutersloh, German F4F from Hopstein AB late 70s, early 80s.
As regards the cable positions I think that “The Americans like approach end engagements” is a rather naive comment. The correct cable to take depends on each aircraft type and the type of emergency, not national preference.
Certainly, the over-run cable is more likely to be required at no notice and so at appropriate Fast Jet bases it is permanently rigged. The approach cable would be required with certain emergencies and normally 10 minutes prior notice is possible. At all competent Fast Jet bases the 10 minute agreement has been standard for years.
Of course, the Americans have had to benefit of the BAK14 for years which can be raised and lowered from the tower. Why was RAF Valley the only Station that had a RHAG with the same capability.
SATCOS WHIPPING, For your interest, but I’m sure that you are aware, not all airfields are quite standard. At RAF Wattisham in the 70s the base operated the Lightning then Phantom ac. Due to the runway being slightly short of 7500 feet (not great for either type) the airfield was equipped with Non standard Type 2 VASIs for a Pilot Eye Height of 13ft 10 ins. The Instrument Touchdown Point was only 1000ft in and the RHAG was only 1200ft in. All of this conspired to encourage pilots to land “On the Numbers”. I believe the Wattisham also had one accident concerning an F4 with the Approach Barrier.
Thread Starter
SATCOS WHIPPING,
As regards an Accident Report concerning accidental barrier engagement look for RAF Gutersloh, German F4F from Hopstein AB late 70s, early 80s.
As regards the cable positions I think that “The Americans like approach end engagements” is a rather naive comment. The correct cable to take depends on each aircraft type and the type of emergency, not national preference.
Certainly, the over-run cable is more likely to be required at no notice and so at appropriate Fast Jet bases it is permanently rigged. The approach cable would be required with certain emergencies and normally 10 minutes prior notice is possible. At all competent Fast Jet bases the 10 minute agreement has been standard for years.
Of course, the Americans have had to benefit of the BAK14 for years which can be raised and lowered from the tower. Why was RAF Valley the only Station that had a RHAG with the same capability.
SATCOS WHIPPING, For your interest, but I’m sure that you are aware, not all airfields are quite standard. At RAF Wattisham in the 70s the base operated the Lightning then Phantom ac. Due to the runway being slightly short of 7500 feet (not great for either type) the airfield was equipped with Non standard Type 2 VASIs for a Pilot Eye Height of 13ft 10 ins. The Instrument Touchdown Point was only 1000ft in and the RHAG was only 1200ft in. All of this conspired to encourage pilots to land “On the Numbers”. I believe the Wattisham also had one accident concerning an F4 with the Approach Barrier.
As regards an Accident Report concerning accidental barrier engagement look for RAF Gutersloh, German F4F from Hopstein AB late 70s, early 80s.
As regards the cable positions I think that “The Americans like approach end engagements” is a rather naive comment. The correct cable to take depends on each aircraft type and the type of emergency, not national preference.
Certainly, the over-run cable is more likely to be required at no notice and so at appropriate Fast Jet bases it is permanently rigged. The approach cable would be required with certain emergencies and normally 10 minutes prior notice is possible. At all competent Fast Jet bases the 10 minute agreement has been standard for years.
Of course, the Americans have had to benefit of the BAK14 for years which can be raised and lowered from the tower. Why was RAF Valley the only Station that had a RHAG with the same capability.
SATCOS WHIPPING, For your interest, but I’m sure that you are aware, not all airfields are quite standard. At RAF Wattisham in the 70s the base operated the Lightning then Phantom ac. Due to the runway being slightly short of 7500 feet (not great for either type) the airfield was equipped with Non standard Type 2 VASIs for a Pilot Eye Height of 13ft 10 ins. The Instrument Touchdown Point was only 1000ft in and the RHAG was only 1200ft in. All of this conspired to encourage pilots to land “On the Numbers”. I believe the Wattisham also had one accident concerning an F4 with the Approach Barrier.
Ah, so we have to trawl back 40 years...I think things have changed quite a bit since then. Didn't the fire trucks have to be led by a man carry a red flag? ;-)
I cannot find the report you mention - but a pint of finest says the Phantom did not put his wheels on the numbers which, after all is said and done, is what started our discussion.
Take a look at more modern footage of cable engagements. F15 at lakenheath hook touches down about 10feet before the wheels do.
and this one is good example is here
https://www.military.com/video/f-15-...ting-cable-pdx
And one posted from SpazSinbad a while ago of a Typhoon. Hook hits the ground a millisecond before the wheels.
And yes, I am aware of the different cable engagement scenarios. Not much point shooting for an over-run cable with no nosewheel steering for example.
You are correct I should have been more specific and said "generally, or normally, or day-to-day", thinking that the four I listed hinted at a favourite layout depending probabilities and types deployed, rather than a set-in-stone absolute standard.
SWB
Last edited by SATCOS WHIPPING BOY; 3rd Apr 2023 at 19:05.
SATCOS WHIPPING BOY - there is every point in “shooting for an over-run cable with no nosewheel steering for example” - if you are too heavy to be able to take the approach end at the correct speed, and you need to use the rudder to keep the jet straight as you have no nose-wheel steering, thus you need to take the over run. I did this in a Tornado once heavy weight with a hyd leak and it was something that was practiced in the simulator quite a bit.
Also, I believe that a Tomb caught the approach barrier at Wildenwrath in 1980 with its hook.
Also, I believe that a Tomb caught the approach barrier at Wildenwrath in 1980 with its hook.
The following users liked this post:
We had a Jaguar take the overrun cable one night; he had been out on an NVG trial and did a PAR and when the talkdown controller terminated he was rewarded with the reply 'cable cable'! I don't know why he took the cable but it could have been as you say, nosewheel steering.
The following users liked this post:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,586
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
Ah,....And one posted from SpazSinbad a while ago of a Typhoon. Hook hits the ground a millisecond before the wheels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyPX...=airshowvision
SWB
SWB
F-111 Arrest No Wheels 18 Jun 2006 RAAF Amberley
The following 2 users liked this post by SpazSinbad:
Thread Starter
We had a Jaguar take the overrun cable one night; he had been out on an NVG trial and did a PAR and when the talkdown controller terminated he was rewarded with the reply 'cable cable'! I don't know why he took the cable but it could have been as you say, nosewheel steering.
Burnt off fuel to get weight down first. Backseater smacked his face pretty hard as eviddenced later that afternoon in the Wardroom.
Not sure what the problem was with that one.
Saw an F4 take the cable at Gütersloh one night just as I was turning to for yet another call out. It was very sparkly as I recall and much better than the usual startex inject.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,037
Received 2,911 Likes
on
1,247 Posts
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/pardos-push-how-an-f-4-pushed-a-crippled-f-4-to-safety/
The following users liked this post:
Looking at these remarks, I wonder why more RAF FJ airfields weren't equipped with bowsprings. OK we had multiple types (Buccaneer, Lightning, Hunter T8, Jaguar) and whenever one of these was operating, SOP was approach cable down and overrun up but the fact you could raise the bowsprings instantly rather than call out the crew to run out the grommets was advantageous.
Looking at the AIP MIL, it looks like Valley, Wittering, Lossie and Leuchars have RHAGs apart from the 4 mentioned above (and USAF airfields) but places like Boscombe, Yeovilton and Wattisham no longer have them so apart from the cables at Brize which are kept de-rigged (20min PNR to rig), there are no RAF or RN cables anywhere in the south of England.
Last edited by chevvron; 4th Apr 2023 at 14:06.
The following users liked this post:
Also, I believe that a Tomb caught the approach barrier at Wildenwrath in 1980 with its hook
If it is the incident to which you refer this was the late Hylton Price who caught the approach end barrier with his undercarriage at night. The approach end barrier was, in error, up with the warning lights inop. He managed to get airborne again and subsequently landed safely. .
If it is the incident to which you refer this was the late Hylton Price who caught the approach end barrier with his undercarriage at night. The approach end barrier was, in error, up with the warning lights inop. He managed to get airborne again and subsequently landed safely. .
The following users liked this post:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the Fence
Age: 71
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
4 Posts
Nipva,
Yes, I remember it well. Wildenrath used to use both 27 and 09 for departures at the same time to reduce taxi time. A 92 Sqn ac had just departed from 09 prior to Hyltons approach to 27. It was just after dark and the barrier had accidently been left in the up position. Hilton knew nothing of what had happened but “Bolted” and got airborne with the barrier wrapped round his main gear.
I believe that they also damaged the approach end RHAG which was in the up position.
Hylton and his Flt Cdr nav were returning from an Ample Gain (BX run). The nav had a new stereo on his lap and so was most reluctant to eject. He would have lost the stereo and maybe his knees.
Hilton managed to land OK and only afterwards discover what had happened. Thank God that the F4 was such a robust aircraft.
Yes, I remember it well. Wildenrath used to use both 27 and 09 for departures at the same time to reduce taxi time. A 92 Sqn ac had just departed from 09 prior to Hyltons approach to 27. It was just after dark and the barrier had accidently been left in the up position. Hilton knew nothing of what had happened but “Bolted” and got airborne with the barrier wrapped round his main gear.
I believe that they also damaged the approach end RHAG which was in the up position.
Hylton and his Flt Cdr nav were returning from an Ample Gain (BX run). The nav had a new stereo on his lap and so was most reluctant to eject. He would have lost the stereo and maybe his knees.
Hilton managed to land OK and only afterwards discover what had happened. Thank God that the F4 was such a robust aircraft.
The following users liked this post:
Spaz's SpazzinBad fave AF Arrest Video.... F-111 Arrest No Wheels 18 Jun 2006 RAAF Amberley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM5E9yQVdcI
F-111 Arrest No Wheels 18 Jun 2006 RAAF Amberleyhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM5E9yQVdcI
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,037
Received 2,911 Likes
on
1,247 Posts
Has Gib still got its Chag?
More on Marham's RHAG
https://marshall-landsystems.com/our-stories/rhag-paag
More on Marham's RHAG
https://marshall-landsystems.com/our-stories/rhag-paag