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Can anyone date and place this photo, please?

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Can anyone date and place this photo, please?

Old 18th Jan 2023, 18:35
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Outstanding and tenacious bit of detective work. Bravo Squipdit Fashions !

Just goes to show how significant perspective is. I was convinced for a time it was Dartmouth, NS. Never occurred to me that seen from close to sea level the piers along the Hudson would look like that.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 18:51
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Chris -
"I don't have a decode to establish the exercises flown but, after a week and 6 hours' dual in Chipmunks, he recorded "FIRST SOLO". That's pretty quick, unless he had previous experience with, for example, a UAS at his university in England. But no earlier logbook has been found. The certificate recording completion of Primary Flight Training is dated 2/8/57."

Someone, somewhere should have the key to those codes, have you approached the RAF or may be even better the RCAF?, last time i was in Ottawa the museum there seemed to have a plethora of information.
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Old 18th Jan 2023, 21:12
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Originally Posted by Rescue3 View Post
Chris -
"I don't have a decode to establish the exercises flown but, after a week and 6 hours' dual in Chipmunks, he recorded "FIRST SOLO". That's pretty quick, unless he had previous experience with, for example, a UAS at his university in England. But no earlier logbook has been found. The certificate recording completion of Primary Flight Training is dated 2/8/57."

Someone, somewhere should have the key to those codes, have you approached the RAF or may be even better the RCAF?, last time i was in Ottawa the museum there seemed to have a plethora of information.
Thanks, it's a thought. At AST Perth (Scone) in the 1960s, we used exercise codes that were similar but, I concluded, not quite the same as the RCAF ones. However, I think we are all fairly au-fait with the exercises needed to take a trainee-pilot through the primary training in a Chipmunk or other ab-initio trainer.

They would include, of course, spin entry and recovery. The Chipmunk is said to be susceptible to developing a so-called flat spin, which may be irrecoverable. Many, including those used by the RAF, were modified with a dorsal strake on each side of the rear fuselage, just forward of the tailplane, to mitigate that tendency. The Wikipedia entry includes a photo of RCAF-style Chipmunks with bubble canopies. These would have been produced by DH Canada long after the type's spin characteristics were well known, but there is no sign of the strakes.
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Old 19th Jan 2023, 10:41
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The anti-spin strakes on RAF Chipmunks were only fitted from 1958, with the mod complete across the fleet c.1959. They were never fitted to the Canadian aircraft in RCAF service at all, as far as I'm aware. Obviously a different ADH chain!!
Plenty of PPRuNe "Pprevious" on the subject, including here: Chipmunk is Beautiful
here: RAF DH Chipmunks Smaller rudder fitted
and here: RAF Chipmunks .

Bring on the thread drift, it's looming! (Mods, be aware!)

And to get back on course, here's an interesting narrative on the NATP in Canada from an RAF participant, John Nish, in 1956, describing the journey (in his case, to Halifax) and the progression of the course, via London, Ontario (classroom work), Centralia (Chipmunk), Moose Jaw (Harvard) and Gimli (Silver Stars). A couple of years prior to Tony; but confirms that RAF (and NATO) wings were, in this case, presented on completion of the course before homeward travel. http://aircrew-saltire.org/lib239.html

Last edited by Squipdit Fashions; 19th Jan 2023 at 11:39. Reason: Saltire Aircrew Association link
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 12:40
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And Norman Tebbitt
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 21:01
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Footnote...

Originally Posted by Chris Scott View Post
[...]
I've now seen images of the first two pages of the RCAF logbook he was using in Canada. Curiously, it omits a FROM/TO column and the exercises are number-coded. But an accompanying certificate confirms his primary flying training was conducted at RCAF Centralia (near Exeter, Ontario), as Squipdit F suggested. His first recorded sortie, in a Chipmunk, was on 2/7/57.

I don't have a decode to establish the exercises flown but, after a week and 6 hours' dual in Chipmunks, he recorded "FIRST SOLO". That's pretty quick, unless he had previous experience with, for example, a UAS at his university in England. But no earlier logbook has been found. The certificate recording completion of Primary Flight Training is dated 2/8/57.
Thanks for that link to the Scottish Saltire Aircrew Association, SF. Well written and most illuminating.

It's now become clear that Tony had no previous flying experience when he arrived at Centralia. He had graduated from a well-known university in S.W. England with a BSc. Assuming that, after his arrival by sea at New York, he was sent initially to RCAF London, Ontario, for classroom instruction, the latter seems to have been brief, and Centralia was just up the road. Going solo on the Chipmunk from scratch after only six hours' dual (not unusual, according to a contemporary National Serviceman), he finally completed a total of 25:25 (10:55 solo) on that type in one month to complete his primary flight training.

Tony's following logbook entries, starting about 4 weeks later, record Harvard flights. Again, the logbook doesn't record "FROM/TO" information but - from John Nish's account - it seems likely his intermediate flying training on the Harvard was at Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, over a period of about six months in the winter of 1957/8. He went solo after 6:30 and completed about 167 hours on the Harvard, of which 60 were solo.

Advanced training started - presumably at RCAF Gimli, Manitoba - in April 1958 on the Canadair CT-133 Silver Star (as previously noted, a Canadian version of the Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star with a Rolls Royce Nene engine). Tony soloed on type after 9:30 and completed about 87 hours on it, of which about 37 were solo. During this posting, he was regraded from Acting Pilot Officer to Pilot Officer [London Gazette].

Jet training was completed by July 1958, after which he returned to the UK, arriving by sea at Liverpool on 3/8/58. After that, he was able to do another 5 hrs flying before being officially transferred to RAF Reserve on 8/11/58. The London Gazette records his promotion to Flying Officer on 8/2/59, two years and two days after his "service to count from" date in the same publication.

On behalf of Tony's friends and family, I'd like to thank everyone who has provided invaluable advice and/or information via this thread.

Last edited by Chris Scott; 25th Jan 2023 at 21:22.
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 21:21
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Get whoever has the logbook to look in the back where they may find a “record of service” page which might help fill in some of the remaining blanks.
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 23:04
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Have the family applied for his `Record of Service` at all...?
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 09:33
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Thanks for that, Timelord and sycamore. Think that will now have to wait till after the funeral.
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 10:43
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Chris,

Iím glad you found the some of the answers regarding your colleague, and his RAF service.

Once again, my condolences and best wishes to you and his family.
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 12:30
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Originally Posted by Professor Plum View Post
Chris,

I’m glad you found the some of the answers regarding your colleague, and his RAF service.

Once again, my condolences and best wishes to you and his family.
Thanks, Prof, I'll pass it on. I can honestly say that the contributions on and arising from this thread have helped me to glean far more about Tony's National Service than I ever expected. The problem now for the gent who - being a much closer friend and airline colleague than I - will be delivering a eulogy on Tony's flying career is what to omit, so as not to exceed the time limit imposed by the venue.
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