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After landing when would you put the seat pins in

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After landing when would you put the seat pins in

Old 7th Jan 2023, 11:44
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After landing when would you put the seat pins in

Hi all, information gathering for a model diorama and in particular the F-4J(uk) unless its appropriate to all old style seats. So after landing when would you put the seat pins in, or would you wait until stopped and shutting down.Equally the seat pin for the upper handle in photos has a large lanyard attached. Would this have been used in service or just the familiar pins/red disc set up.TIA. Steve.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 10:08
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NATOPS for F-4J USN 1978 says (135Mb PDF): https://www.docdroid.com/8I7CdG8/f-4...er-edition-pdf


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Old 8th Jan 2023, 10:14
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NATOPS sense of humour. Cartoon from: https://www.docdroid.com/Zf5T99m/f-4...e-i-amd-ii-pdf

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Old 8th Jan 2023, 10:53
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Never flew theF4 but Buccaneer practice in the 80s was: Clear the runway. Stop. Replace pins.Taxi back, open canopy. Never saw any pins attached to a lanyard.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 11:46
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Graphic from same NATOPS above MK-H7 Ejection Seat. RAF F-4 Phantom II Type 7 A1 Ejection Seat: http://www.ejectionsite.com/raf_f4seat.htm Mk7 Ejection Seat – Martin Baker (martin-baker.com) Also: F-4 Phantom II Martin-Baker Mk. H-7 Ejection Seat: The Ejection Site


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Old 8th Jan 2023, 11:56
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Photo: RAF F-4 Phantom II Type 7 A1 Ejection Seat: http://www.ejectionsite.com/vbk/type%207RAF-1.jpg


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Old 8th Jan 2023, 16:33
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Seat pins on 74

Standard disclaimer :
It's a long time since I strapped someone into a J, but I recall the seat pins were all attached by lanyards, 1/2 inch webbing.
The face blind had a wee pouch attached to it as well. It was the last pin out, the rest and their lanyards went into the pouch, then we took the last pin and it's pouch out, handed it to the occupant.
I suspect that's what the original poster has seen.
Happy to be corrected, it wasn't yesterday!
Cheers!
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 18:56
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Originally Posted by clarkieboy
Standard disclaimer :It's a long time since I strapped someone into a J, but I recall the seat pins were all attached by lanyards, 1/2 inch webbing.The face blind had a wee pouch attached to it as well. It was the last pin out, the rest and their lanyards went into the pouch, then we took the last pin and it's pouch out, handed it to the occupant.I suspect that's what the original poster has seen.Happy to be corrected, it wasn't yesterday!Cheers!
​​​​​​​Thanks CB. So is it right to assume the aircrew shut down then groundcrew climbed up and put the face pin in first, or is it possible the aircrew my have done it on the taxy back in.
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Old 8th Jan 2023, 19:18
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74 pins

Originally Posted by NIREP reader
Thanks CB. So is it right to assume the aircrew shut down then groundcrew climbed up and put the face pin in first, or is it possible the aircrew my have done it on the taxy back in.
As far as I recall,the pins were put in by the crew, but when, I don’t know. Never had to climb up and put them in.
Mind you, usually had a J79 to mend by then….
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 00:02
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I think that on the JP the procedure was to stop clear of the runway and replace the seat pan handle pins during the after landing checks before taxying in. The ground crew would replace the top handle pins in dispersal before shutdown.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 06:58
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque
I think that on the JP the procedure was to stop clear of the runway and replace the seat pan handle pins during the after landing checks before taxying in. The ground crew would replace the top handle pins in dispersal before shutdown.
although we did have a solo student taxi in and found the only pin out was the top one in the empty seat.😳
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 09:01
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JPs at Cranwell in the 80s, when dual you’d put each others Face-screen Handle pin in. Can’t remember if you could put your own pin in when solo! 🤔
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 10:42
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Originally Posted by H Peacock
JPs at Cranwell in the 80s, when dual you’d put each others Face-screen Handle pin in. Can’t remember if you could put your own pin in when solo! 🤔
I was wondering how you could achieve that. Strapped in tight, and fumbling behind ones head/helmet to insert a pin in an invisible hole seems almost impossible ... with the added risk of accidentally pulling that handle in the process! Or does the seat-pan pin isolate the face-screen operation?
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 11:18
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We're wandering off a bit here, but here's my bit.
Leeming & Scampton 80s-90s JP 3A & 5A on crew in, "top pins" got canopy sear on 3a, then RHS top pin, then LHS individually removed and handed to LHS occupant tag first by the ground crew. At that point, crew had been assisted by groundcrew to get all relevant straps connected but no pins removed. At return to dispersal after flight, ground crew would first check only the tops pins & drogue pins in stowage before being handed the top pins in the order LHS, RHS, Canopy (if present).

On Tornado F3, also removed/fitted the canopy rocket sear on crew instruction, in the same manner as awkward to get at.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 12:14
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Was that throughout the RAF? I know the Jags in Germany never fitted the main gun sear pin, whilst they did in the UK. So they're were differences per commands.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 15:11
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Throughout my service on JP3a, 5a, Tucano, Hawk, Tornado F3, the main gun sears were only ever fitted/removed by armourers as they changed status to/from Safe for Parking & Safe for Servicing. On the flightline always Safe for Parking if available for use. Some time late 80s I think a/c parked "S" in the hangar also had to be "Safe for Servicing" before being put inside, where they hadn't been before.

The only maintenance that could be performed on an a/c "Safe for Parking" is the Flight Servicing required to either directly prepare or recover from flight. Tyre worn to limits after flight? Seats to "Safe for Servicing", change wheel assembly, seats back to "Safe for Parking". All recorded on separate job cards. On turn-round servicing, the F700 co-ordinator was able to put seat status changes on the F716 Flight Servicing Certificate & also decide from a Eng Order Book list if the repairs carried out invalidated the flight servicing or not - but it still had to be documented, as the last SNOW number would be different. That allowed aircrew to see that something had been done to the a/c since the previuos crew had signed it in & it had been officially decided that whatever had been done did not affect the validity of the preparation for the next flight. The armourers had a vehicle as they had to go backwards & forwards to the line hut so much to keep the paperwork status up to date. We were launching waves of up to 14 a/c at a time, so waiting until all had been looked at as necessary by the armourers before they did any paperwork meant the first a/c could be waiting for their signatures for some time before being made available for its next trip.
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 16:21
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Thanks everyone for contributing, it's very much appreciated. Whilst nerding away I found this site and you'll see 2 photos of the F4J on the move with the top pins (with pouch) of both front and rear seats fitted.

https://bpag.co.uk/gallery/ze360-in-service/
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 18:24
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Interested as to why so many photos of Phantom show them taxying in / out with canopies open. Surely they could not then eject?
I presume the seats must have had a minimum of, say, 90 kts to activate, so were not an escape option below that speed?

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Old 9th Jan 2023, 19:50
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Originally Posted by lsh
Interested as to why so many photos of Phantom show them taxying in / out with canopies open. Surely they could not then eject?
I presume the seats must have had a minimum of, say, 90 kts to activate, so were not an escape option below that speed?

lsh
Simple answer for the canopies being open was to get some fresh air/keep the cockpit temperatures down to a reasonable level in hot conditions.

The seats were zero/zero so in theory you could eject whilst taxing or stopped (if your canopy was closed) but the chances of actually needing to do that were pretty low to say the least...
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Old 9th Jan 2023, 21:33
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Originally Posted by MPN11
I was wondering how you could achieve that. Strapped in tight, and fumbling behind ones head/helmet to insert a pin in an invisible hole seems almost impossible ... with the added risk of accidentally pulling that handle in the process! Or does the seat-pan pin isolate the face-screen operation?
No, the seat-pan handle wouldn't isolate the face-screen handle. But in the JP you could see across to the top of the other seat - in fact the same procedure was used in the Canberra T4.

In the PR9 (Mk 3 0ft 70kts seat) the ground-crew removed the top pin once you’d strapped in; after landing, you could reach up and over to put your own pin in! It sounds somewhat hazardous, but in reality you need a hell of a pull to initiate the seat firing, furthermore, if you used the face-screen handle, you had to pull it all the way down over your face. Surprisingly easy to fit the top pin after landing, although not if you had short arms - we didn't even stop taxiing. 😳
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