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UK Defence Equipment Plan 2021-2031

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UK Defence Equipment Plan 2021-2031

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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 10:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Navaleye
The govt should delay the plan to remove Typhoon Tr1s. Buy replacement Harpoon for all major surface combatants and an UOR buy of the new Advanced Tactical Shovel System for for the army
Totally agree, But they won't! They will continue to make grand statements and gestures that we cannot back up whilst retiring existing equipment without replacement and reducing the size and capability of the forces in the name of economic expediency.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 11:51
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The problem , as ever, is how do you pay for it? When The Tories are already spending the highest proportion of GDP since Atlee's time and are desperate to get back to "low levels of taxation and Labour knows they will be crucified by the Press as "tax & spend" there is no national agreement on how much we can raise. Suggest cutting pensioner benefits, or education or the NHS and see the storm that descends on you. And yet this is where the money is actually spent.

Modern kit and modern people cost serious money - promises, speeches and photo opportunities are dirt cheap
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 12:01
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The govt should delay the plan to remove Typhoon Tr1s
They already did that. The latest OSD date is a reversal of that earlier reversal. Surely you can't now expect a reversal of that reversal of that reversal?!
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 12:42
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
They already did that. The latest OSD date is a reversal of that earlier reversal. Surely you can't now expect a reversal of that reversal of that reversal?!
I think you'll find that the latest OSD is a reversal of the earlier reversal which was a reversal of the two previous OSD's. The upshot being that as a result of the IR, the RAF is going to lose 40 Typhoons that it thought it was going to have for many more years.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 12:45
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Money raised for PPE and Respirator supply, furlough funding and business support through Covid is the lie to what you claim. It can be, and has been, done.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 12:48
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Originally Posted by Brewster Buffalo
I hope so...cutting the Army from 80,000 to 70,000 looks like a mistake now. Perhaps some more Typhoons for the RAF?
More Typhoons?

The Government is about to withdraw and scrap 40 RAF Typhoons without replacement. The replies to the PM in the house today about defence spending show clearly that there is going to be no reduction or delay in the cut backs and capability gaps this Government has planned for UK defence.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 13:01
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" It can be, and has been, done."

I agree - but that was done with the overwhelming support of the public - they all thought they were going to die.

I currently live in what could be described as a Tory heartland - but apart from me there is only one other person I know locally who is even vaguely defence orientated. We have one Councillor who served in the RAF - none of the others have served, worked or have family serving as far as I know. If I mention defence they all glaze over - just look at the newspapers - most of them report whats happening but apart from the Telegraph there's really no call for more kit or more troops.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 13:06
  #28 (permalink)  
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What difference would keeping the extra Typhoon squadrons make to what is happening in Ukraine - or possible future events in Eastern Europe?

Boots on the ground at least provide a return to Tripwire, the threat of confrontation with NATO and escalation. Not sure an extra 4-6 Typhoons deployed to Akrotiri or Rumania would do that.

One of the first things that Putin and Biden agreed is that, under no circumstances, would nuclear weapons be deployed or used in an6 confrontation. One one side that is a relief - on the other, without Tripwire or Flexible Response and the run down of NATO conventional forces in Central Europe, it leaves the east horribly exposed to a conventional attack.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 13:38
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Originally Posted by ORAC
What difference would keeping the extra Typhoon squadrons make to what is happening in Ukraine - or possible future events in Eastern Europe?

Boots on the ground at least provide a return to Tripwire, the threat of confrontation with NATO and escalation. Not sure an extra 4-6 Typhoons deployed to Akrotiri or Rumania would do that.

One of the first things that Putin and Biden agreed is that, under no circumstances, would nuclear weapons be deployed or used in an6 confrontation. One one side that is a relief - on the other, without Tripwire or Flexible Response and the run down of NATO conventional forces in Central Europe, it leaves the east horribly exposed to a conventional attack.
ORAC,

No material difference to what is happening in Ukraine whatsoever.

But the lie that Johnson and co keep on trotting out about defence spending and capability must be a huge comfort to Putin as he notes constant UK capability reductions. To at least halt this nonsense would go some small way to signalling resolve and ensuring that he goes no further than Ukraine. It would also be a huge comfort to folk in places like Estonia.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 13:41
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
" It can be, and has been, done."

I agree - but that was done with the overwhelming support of the public - they all thought they were going to die.

I currently live in what could be described as a Tory heartland - but apart from me there is only one other person I know locally who is even vaguely defence orientated. We have one Councillor who served in the RAF - none of the others have served, worked or have family serving as far as I know. If I mention defence they all glaze over - just look at the newspapers - most of them report whats happening but apart from the Telegraph there's really no call for more kit or more troops.
I for one am quite happy that we live in a land where defence is so low profile.

As to only the Telegraph calling for more kit or more troops, if you had listened or watched the various speeches in the House this morning in response to the statement on Ukraine by the PM, you would have seen many such calls emanating from all across the house.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 14:47
  #31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by pr00ne
I think you'll find that the latest OSD is a reversal of the earlier reversal which was a reversal of the two previous OSD's. The upshot being that as a result of the IR, the RAF is going to lose 40 Typhoons that it thought it was going to have for many more years.
Last I heard they are going in 2025. They could easily be extended if needed. Why not give some to Ireland to plug their air defence gap?
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 15:09
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Originally Posted by ORAC
What difference would keeping the extra Typhoon squadrons make to what is happening in Ukraine - or possible future events in Eastern Europe?
............
Nothing short term I agree....but it shows intent - that we note that Russia is using its military forces to get its way in Eastern Ukraine and so we are increasing our forces to defend ourselves against that threat being used elsewhere.

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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 16:33
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Originally Posted by ORAC
What difference would keeping the extra Typhoon squadrons make to what is happening in Ukraine - or possible future events in Eastern Europe?

Boots on the ground at least provide a return to Tripwire, the threat of confrontation with NATO and escalation. Not sure an extra 4-6 Typhoons deployed to Akrotiri or Rumania would do that.

One of the first things that Putin and Biden agreed is that, under no circumstances, would nuclear weapons be deployed or used in an6 confrontation. One one side that is a relief - on the other, without Tripwire or Flexible Response and the run down of NATO conventional forces in Central Europe, it leaves the east horribly exposed to a conventional attack.
Does anyone seriously believe Putin when he says he will not use Nuclear Weapons under any circumstances? He said he was not preparing to invade Ukraine as his troops massed. Once there, he said it was an exercise and he had no plans to invade. He has now invaded. His word is utterly worthless.

When the shooting starts, one of 2 things will happen - Russia will start to 'win' or start to 'lose'. If they win quickly in Ukraine, will he try to ride his luck and push into NATO territory? If he does, NATO will respond and I believe at this point Russia will start to lose. Putin, as I have said before, would rather die than see this happen. If he believes that Russia is in danger of failing in his ambitions and of being 'beaten', then I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he would use Nukes without hesitation. This is his life's quest and his enduring legacy - he will do anything to succeed.

Right now, as he readies tanks and troops, we respond with paper threats and sanctions - he must be laughing all the way to Kiev...or Warsaw. He has proven beyond doubt that he is irrational and untruthful. Those who take comfort in his statement regarding non-use of Nukes are naiive and deluded, IMHO.

I believe that whatever will happen ,will happen quickly - probably before any of the cuts take effect.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 17:04
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Navaleye
Last I heard they are going in 2025. They could easily be extended if needed. Why not give some to Ireland to plug their air defence gap?
Because, if the MoD is to be believed, we are not scrapping these Typhoons for cost reasons but because they are no longer sustainable as viable combat aircraft.

I know, I don't believe that either.
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Old 22nd Feb 2022, 17:10
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Originally Posted by Navaleye
Why not give some to Ireland to plug their air defence gap?
I'd rather see them scrapped. If Ireland want to defend their airspace they can pay for it like everyone else.
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Old 23rd Feb 2022, 02:13
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne
... retire Type 23 Frigates ...
T23 replaced by T26 GCS & T31, though?
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Old 23rd Feb 2022, 07:00
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09
In the Air Command Section:

"Funding for new A400M Atlas and additional purchase of F35B Lightning II (beyond the 48 the Department is already committed to) is not included in Air Command’s planned spend here and is held centrally."

"Air Command will retire equipment that has increasingly limited utility in the digital and future operating environment. This will include rationalising older fleets to improve efficiency, retiring Typhoon Tranche 1 by 2025, and Hawk T1. Air Command will also retire the BAe146 as planned by 2022, take the C130 Hercules out of service by 2023 and retire the E-3D Sentry in 2021."
I didn't know there was still an Air Command? I thought it was the entire RAF therefore no command structure any longer.

FB
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Old 23rd Feb 2022, 08:49
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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"you would have seen many such calls emanating from all across the house."

yes and many from members that in the past have tried to cut costs and expenditure

I don't honestly think that MP's have any real influence any more in the UK - they're lobby fodder for the party management and the public think they're as trustworthy as used car salesmen
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Old 23rd Feb 2022, 09:13
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
"you would have seen many such calls emanating from all across the house."

yes and many from members that in the past have tried to cut costs and expenditure

I don't honestly think that MP's have any real influence any more in the UK - they're lobby fodder for the party management and the public think they're as trustworthy as used car salesmen
But, they are our legislature. They make the laws and the Governing party runs the country. Each and every one of them has a Parliamentary vote, that is a LOT of influence!
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Old 23rd Feb 2022, 12:07
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You would think they would rip it up and start again as the world situation has changed in the last month significantly.
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