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Russian Sub hit Towed Array 2020

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Russian Sub hit Towed Array 2020

Old 11th Jan 2022, 09:55
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Most of the Navy comments seemed to indicate that the Russian sub hit the tower sonar array by accident. Nonetheless, accident or not, it did stop HMS Northumberland from continuing to track the sub, and allow the Russians to go on doing whatever they were doing without interference or detection. Not ideal and certainly not what you would want in a fighting war.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 10:13
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lightonthewater View Post
Most of the Navy comments seemed to indicate that the Russian sub hit the tower sonar array by accident. Nonetheless, accident or not, it did stop HMS Northumberland from continuing to track the sub, and allow the Russians to go on doing whatever they were doing without interference or detection. Not ideal and certainly not what you would want in a fighting war.
You are assuming that the ship was alone and no other UK or NATO ASW assets were involved. I think that is very unlikely.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 10:42
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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True, but still not ideal: neutralising the anti-sub capability of a major warship has to be a win for any opponent, however well supported she might be by other assets and allies. Taking out a towed sonar array now has to be in the tactical playbook for any submarine, however risky.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 10:57
  #44 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by lightonthewater View Post
Video Mix:
True, but still not ideal: neutralising the anti-sub capability of a major warship has to be a win for any opponent, however well supported she might be by other assets and allies. Taking out a towed sonar array now has to be in the tactical playbook for any submarine, however risky.
It happens more than you think on both sides. Northumberland had a breakdown on her towed array just prior to the incident. What does surprise me is that her Merlin wasn't up tracking the sub during the outage. Dipping sonar and buoys should up to the task, especially when you know you have a CERTSUB 6 miles off your port quarter
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 10:59
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lightonthewater View Post
True, but still not ideal: neutralising the anti-sub capability of a major warship has to be a win for any opponent, however well supported she might be by other assets and allies. Taking out a towed sonar array now has to be in the tactical playbook for any submarine, however risky.
Only if you can convincingly make it look like an accident. Doing it on purpose (in peacetime) would presumably be construed as an act of aggression, potentially inviting consequences. In wartime, if you can get close enough to make physical contact with its sonar array, it probably wasn't that much of a threat anyway...
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 11:21
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I seem to have read somewhere that the ship's helicopter had in fact seen a periscope, so presumably it was available. The TV programme is obviously heavily edited, and I am sure many events are omitted, or shown out of sequence, for reasons of security, brevity or good storytelling. Nonetheless, a towed array, however useful, does seem rather vulnerable. But probably that is a price you pay for effectiveness. And it makes for a very good TV programme...
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 13:17
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In the event of a fighting war, if you can get close enough to an ASW ship take out its towed array, wouldn’t a torpedo or missile be your preferred tactic?

Unless of course you’ve run out of them.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 19:19
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I was wondering about the nature of the threat to undersea cables posed by Russian submarines and how it can be countered short of sinking the sub. Presumably such an attack would require the use of a submersible launched from a mother-sub, which would then have to loiter on station to support the submersible and recover it when the deed was done. Defensive tactics are no doubt highly classified, but maybe in peacetime it'd be something like using disruptive ASW tactics to either prevent the submersible from being launched or to shepherd the mother-sub off-station leaving the deployed submersible and its crew stuffed.
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 20:15
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Derfred View Post
In the event of a fighting war, if you can get close enough to an ASW ship take out its towed array, wouldn’t a torpedo or missile be your preferred tactic?

Unless of course you’ve run out of them.
I think this misses the fundamental that the submarine was compromised once it was detected and tracked.





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Old 11th Jan 2022, 20:54
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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The programme was showing a fast rotating PPI display while talking about the Sonar. Does the Sonar have a PPI display as well as the "waterfall" screens?
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Old 11th Jan 2022, 21:58
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown View Post
I was wondering about the nature of the threat to undersea cables posed by Russian submarines and how it can be countered short of sinking the sub. Presumably such an attack would require the use of a submersible launched from a mother-sub, which would then have to loiter on station to support the submersible and recover it when the deed was done. Defensive tactics are no doubt highly classified, but maybe in peacetime it'd be something like using disruptive ASW tactics to either prevent the submersible from being launched or to shepherd the mother-sub off-station leaving the deployed submersible and its crew stuffed.
Surely the preferred option is to tap the cables, rather than to break them. A bomb will break any cable efficiently, no need for mini subs to do that.
Both the US as well as Russia have specialized bottom crawling subs whose most plausible routine use is to place and maintain cable tap installations.
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Old 12th Jan 2022, 09:14
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Its much easier to hack into the machines at either end of a cable than use an SSN to do it - but it gives the navies something to do
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Old 12th Jan 2022, 09:46
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Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Surely the preferred option is to tap the cables, rather than to break them. A bomb will break any cable efficiently, no need for mini subs to do that.
Both the US as well as Russia have specialized bottom crawling subs whose most plausible routine use is to place and maintain cable tap installations.
Norway seems to have had some 'unfortunate' problems with its undersea cables over the past year.
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Old 12th Jan 2022, 10:08
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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"Give me a ping`,Taz.One ping only".......
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Old 12th Jan 2022, 11:01
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Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Surely the preferred option is to tap the cables, rather than to break them. A bomb will break any cable efficiently, no need for mini subs to do that.
Both the US as well as Russia have specialized bottom crawling subs whose most plausible routine use is to place and maintain cable tap installations.
The Royal Navy has form using X-Craft miniature submarines. They were required to bring back severed sections of the cables to prove the success of their missions:
Operations "Sabre" and "Foil"

These were a pair of operations to cut [Japanese] undersea telephone cables connecting Singapore, Saigon, Hong Kong and Tokyo during the Second World War. The intention was to oblige the Japanese to use radio and render themselves open to message interception.

Operation "Sabre" was carried out by "XE4", which was towed to within 40 miles of the Mekong Delta by the submarine HMS "Spearhead", where she looked for the two telephone cables by using a towed grapnel. She eventually snagged the first cable, and managed to haul it about 10 ft off the seabed. "XE4's" diver, Sub-Lieutenant K.M. Briggs, used the net/cable cutter to sever it. The second cable was soon found as well, and was severed by the second diver, Sub-Lieutenant A. Bergius. Two divers were carried due to the operating rule that a diver should not spend more than 20 minutes in depths over 33 ft and no more than 10 minutes over 40ft.

Operation "Foil" was carried out by "XE5", against the Hong Kong end of the cable, after being towed into position by the submarine HMS "Selene". Operating close inshore near to Lamma Island, working conditions were poor, "XE5's" divers having to work in thick mud under the constant threat of oxygen poisoning. Despite this, the operation was successful.
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 10:37
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Having just managed to watch the latest episode of Warship - Life at sea, I am again struck by what an omnishambles the whole thing makes the Navy look. Leaving aside the now obligatory fire , and extraction of crew members by Merlin for drug taking, this episode's drama of the flooding caused by a torn seal around the base of the gun barrel and the consequent hand bailing out exercise verged on the comical. Given how vital the mission was said to be, with the attendant and inevitable for channel 5 race against time, the 50% reduction in speed did seem like an obvious handicap, Why did they not rotate the gun to move the seal out of the way on the onrushing waves? On planet earth in 2022. there must surely be a better understanding of how to design ships than this, and better and more effective ways to remove flooding.
Returning to the main event, it is surely not without relevance that while the sub was at close quarters, and before any damage to the towed array, the system went U/S. The Merlin was still not deployed . When the circuit boards had been shuffled to restore the system, the sub was nowhere to be found.
Are Channel 5 documentary makers a Jinx on any vessel they are aboard, or is it really as bad as it seems?
Next episode awaited with baited breath and a deep sense of foreboding......
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 11:05
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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You can’t turn a 4.5 360 degrees on a T23; despite the seal being split, the forward aspect is still the strongest to face heavy seas. Turning the gun would’ve risked damaging the entire turret.
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 12:31
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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a-t-g,turning it 360 would not resolve the problem.....! "For a ha`pennyth of tar,the ship was compromised"....
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 13:00
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A-T-G I find it hard to imagine that the gun mounting would have an asymetrical ability to withstand the force of the waves, not least as they need to be able to withstand the recoil of the gun in any potential firing position. Turning it 90 degrees would have done the trick. If you are saying the gun mountings can only withstand waves breaking over the bow if it is pointing straight ahead, it makes the design of the gaiter even more lamentable.
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Old 15th Jan 2022, 13:08
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Originally Posted by falcon900 View Post
A-T-G I find it hard to imagine that the gun mounting would have an asymetrical ability to withstand the force of the waves, not least as they need to be able to withstand the recoil of the gun in any potential firing position. Turning it 90 degrees would have done the trick. If you are saying the gun mountings can only withstand waves breaking over the bow if it is pointing straight ahead, it makes the design of the gaiter even more lamentable.
Have you included the shape of the turret in your thinking? I have never seen a turret faced anything other that forward in heavy seas, and that includes a typhoon that bent the gun director located on the upper deck in the lee of the bridge.
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