UK extends Merlin operations until 2040

[SLXOwft]

Flight Global reported yestreday that it response to a question to MoD they were told that the OSD for the RNs Merlins has been extended to 2040 and there is therefore no immediate need for a replacement programme. Strikes me as driven by the funding gap rather than capability requirements..
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...144123.article

Presumably as the newest HM.2 will be 25 years old by then; there will have to be an upgrade in the interim. Give the shrunken fleet and plans to expand the escort fleet shouldn't there be a follow on buy or will Wildcat have to plug the gap?

I no longer have access to the article but I am sure it implied that the Junglies' Merlins are included; that implies they won't be replaced by the new medium vertical lift aircraft (yes I know it wil almost certainly be a helicopter).

Got me wondering if the successor will be the same as the USN's MH-60R / MQ-8C replacement.
usn-begins-search-replacement-mh-60r-s-mq-8c-2030-s.

[chopper2004]

Originally Posted by SLXOwft

Flight Global reported yestreday that it response to a question to MoD they were told that the OSD for the RNs Merlins has been extended to 2040 and there is therefore no immediate need for a replacement programme. Strikes me as driven by the funding gap rather than capability requirements..
https://www.flightglobal.com/helicop...144123.article

Presumably as the newest HM.2 will be 25 years old by then; there will have to be an upgrade in the interim. Give the shrunken fleet and plans to expand the escort fleet shouldn't there be a follow on buy or will Wildcat have to plug the gap?

I no longer have access to the article but I am sure it implied that the Junglies' Merlins are included; that implies they won't be replaced by the new medium vertical lift aircraft (yes I know it wil almost certainly be a helicopter).

Got me wondering if the successor will be the same as the USN's MH-60R / MQ-8C replacement.
usn-begins-search-replacement-mh-60r-s-mq-8c-2030-s.

Sounds about right ..4 decades of Service so, no different to 4 and half decades of SK operations.

So what we looking for now combo of Unmanned / unmanned operation ?

What about Wildcat?

cheers

[Fareastdriver]

The Puma has been going for fifty years. Tomorrow will be the fiftieth anniversary of the reformation of 33 Squadron.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Originally Posted by SLXOwft

I no longer have access to the article but I am sure it implied that the Junglies' Merlins are included; that implies they won't be replaced by the new medium vertical lift aircraft (yes I know it wil almost certainly be a helicopter).
.

Merlin definitely isn't in scope for the "New Medium Helicopter" NMH (puma / dauphin / 212 / 412 replacement). In that timeframe it is in scope (as mentioned recently by a couple of MOD folk) for the NATO Next Gen Rotorcraft (aka NGRC) as this is slated for 2035 (but widely not expected til 2040).

[SLXOwft]

MOD has announced its intention to award contracts (both worth Ł1,861,065 (net of VAT)) to Leonardo Helicopters and Lockheed Martin for the Assessment Phase of the Merlin OSD Extension Programme.

The Secretary of State for Defence intends to enter into a contract with ... to undertake a full review of and validation of the obsolescence issues anticipated to arise in with the airframes and equipment together with the associated training aids in the 2030+ timescale in order to extend the Out of Service date of the Merlin Mk2 and Mk4/4a aircraft.

https://www.find-tender.service.gov....ce/019037-2023

https://www.find-tender.service.gov....ce/019033-2023

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by Fareastdriver

The Puma has been going for fifty years. Tomorrow will be the fiftieth anniversary of the reformation of 33 Squadron.

It's not the same Puma though is it? The HC 2 started in service in 2013.

If they had allowed the same amount of update to the Sea King, we'd all still be flying them now and wouldn't care much about the Merlin.

[Nicholas Howard]

Presumably as the newest HM.2 will be 25 years old by then; there will have to be an upgrade in the interim. Give the shrunken fleet and plans to expand the escort fleet shouldn't there be a follow on buy or will Wildcat have to plug the gap?

Not forgetting that all the HM2s were originally HM1s, the first of which was delivered in 1997, so the the oldest could be 43 by the time it retires - Sea King/Chinook/Puma age. There are, I think, 8 HM1s still in storage (as well as 2.5 HC3s) somewhere that could be upgraded as part of this OSDEP should the newly expanding ASW frigate flotilla need them.

[Asturias56]

"should the newly expanding ASW frigate flotilla need them"

given past performance I wouldn't start work on kit for "extra" frigates until they launch them

[SLXOwft]

Expressions of interest requested for 'Radar Solutions' for Merlin HM.2. Does this mean a new radar or another iteration of Blue Kestrel - a la Nid de Corbeau?

It is anticipated the life of the Royal Navy Merlin HM Mk2 aircraft will be extended until at least 2040 under a prime contract led by Lockheed Martin UK Limited.

Lockheed Martin is seeking Expressions of Interest from organisations wishing to be considered for qualification for the competitive procurement process for Radar solutions for the Royal Navy Merlin HM Mk2.

The radar is to provide helicopter-based surface search for general maritime surveillance including small target detection/tracking, situational awareness and contribution to collision avoidance.

Additional capabilities including air detection and over-land modes should be identified.

Expressions of Interest should be limited to two pages, in English, containing the full contact details for the organisation in question with a single point of contact for any communications.

Respondents to this notice may be required to demonstrate proven experience in similar contracts, details of financial status, core business and future development plans.

Lockheed Martin reserves the right to restrict the number of bidders or to postpone or cancel the competitive process.

[Davef68]

Looks like they are inviting both options

[Less Hair]

Wouldn't the UK be looking for higher cruise speeds and more range for pacific scenarios, like the US does?

[Video Mixdown]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

Wouldn't the UK be looking for higher cruise speeds and more range for pacific scenarios, like the US does?

If you mean V-22, I should think very high costs and safety concerns have ended that idea. Any future UK requirement will most likely be met by UAV's.

[Less Hair]

Not so much the V-22, but more future vertical lift in general.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Vertical_Lift

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

Not so much the V-22, but more future vertical lift in general.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Vertical_Lift

NGRC (the NATO programme that is the most likely candidate for Merlin replacement at present - naturally that'll change!) has increased speed/range requirements but in the realms of traditional rotorcraft rather than compound rotorcraft iirc.

We'll naturally wait and see what happens, but note that V-280 is unlikely to be available for quite some time (and is likely to be expensive) and the UK is unlikely to afford V-22 anytime soon.

[melmothtw]

Originally Posted by pba_target

NGRC (the NATO programme that is the most likely candidate for Merlin replacement at present - naturally that'll change!) has increased speed/range requirements but in the realms of traditional rotorcraft rather than compound rotorcraft iirc.

We'll naturally wait and see what happens, but note that V-280 is unlikely to be available for quite some time (and is likely to be expensive) and the UK is unlikely to afford V-22 anytime soon.

With a stated cruise requirement of 220 kt, NGRC can't be fulfilled in the realms of traditional rotorcraft. It will require some form of tiltrotor/compound technology.

[Not_a_boffin]

There's a danger of falling into drawing the wrong parallels and conclusions here.

NGRC while aimed at "medium lift" rotorcraft replacement is trying to replace both troop carriers and ASW/ASuW naval helicopters. Which are two fundamentally different roles. One tends to require large volume / weight payloads to be transported rapidly from point to point, while the other tends to require high time on station, variable flight profile (eg loiter speed and hovering) with deployment (for dippers in particular) of complex sensors - and potentially onboard processing.

It may be possible in future for uncrewed assets to do the ASW/ASuW role - but given the weight and complexity of current and projected sensors, plus some of the bandwidth and security issues associated with that role, I'm not holding my breath.

There's always the assumption that only one rotorcraft programme can be afforded and so the requirements get bashed together and compromises made, but I'd hope at least some consideration is given to generating different airframe designs - albeit using common main equipment items where feasibie.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Originally Posted by melmothtw

With a stated cruise requirement of 220 kt, NGRC can't be fulfilled in the realms of traditional rotorcraft. It will require some form of tiltrotor/compound technology.

They've had you with the marketing there I think - everyone suspects that European industry won't come up with an affordable answer to 220kts so:

a spectrum of cruise speeds: “optimally” this would be 220kt (408km/h) or above, but must be “not less than 180kt”.

Source: flight

[melmothtw]

Originally Posted by pba_target

They've had you with the marketing there I think - everyone suspects that European industry won't come up with an affordable answer to 220kts so:

Source: flight

Yes, as I said 220 kt is the stated requirement (actually, the stated requirement is 220 kt or higher, with 180 kt being the absolute lowest threshold). This can't be achieved with conventional helicopter technology, so will have to include some tiltrotor/compound technologies. Though set up initially as a project among European NATO members (it now includes Canada), it is not exclusive to European industry, as evidenced by the latest award for Lockheed Martin.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Originally Posted by melmothtw

Yes, as I said 220 kt is the stated requirement (actually, the stated requirement is 220 kt or higher, with 180 kt being the absolute lowest threshold). This can't be achieved with conventional helicopter technology, so will have to include some tiltrotor/compound technologies. Though set up initially as a project among European NATO members (it now includes Canada), it is not exclusive to European industry, as evidenced by the latest award for Lockheed Martin.

Take your point on wider NATO, the way I read it is the "threshold requirement" is 180, with 220 or higher being the objective (i.e. optional, but bonus points given for) As you state, a non-compound won't make 220, but has a decent chance of 180. Given a compound is likely to be ruinously expensive, it'll be 180.

[ZH844]

Originally Posted by Nicholas Howard

Not forgetting that all the HM2s were originally HM1s, the first of which was delivered in 1997, so the the oldest could be 43 by the time it retires - Sea King/Chinook/Puma age. There are, I think, 8 HM1s still in storage (as well as 2.5 HC3s) somewhere that could be upgraded as part of this OSDEP should the newly expanding ASW frigate flotilla need them.

Not a chance of the orphan 8 returning to service I’m afraid, their condition would prevent this from happening even if the funding were to be made available.