View Poll Results: Do we support USA in Iraq or Sort out Mugabe in Zimbabwe
Yes support USA
15
11.72%
No Sort out Mugabe
113
88.28%
Voters: 128. This poll is closed
IRAQ or ZIMBABWE
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Percy
I am NOT a pinko coke snorting media lefty, far from it. Neither are most of the current Military serving personnel on this board.
So remind me, WHY are we attacking Iraq again? I'm all ears, especially when IMHO the Kingdom of Saud is overdue for Gunboat diplomacy.
Oh, and save the Colonel Blimp crap and jingoistic bollox, I'd like this thread to stay up
McD, Prunepop can we have this moved to JetBlast? I need to go Weapons-Free
I am NOT a pinko coke snorting media lefty, far from it. Neither are most of the current Military serving personnel on this board.
So remind me, WHY are we attacking Iraq again? I'm all ears, especially when IMHO the Kingdom of Saud is overdue for Gunboat diplomacy.
Oh, and save the Colonel Blimp crap and jingoistic bollox, I'd like this thread to stay up
McD, Prunepop can we have this moved to JetBlast? I need to go Weapons-Free
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Yes, Sadaam wants Nukes. Shamir HAS Nukes, hundreds of them, and the means to deliver them with the long range version of the F-15. Why would a nation the size of Israel need a long range fighter bomber? Iraq is very close to a very agressive, well armed neighbor, and has the right to be prepared to defend itself.
Any nation with nuclear weapons could slip them into a container ship and blow up London, or NY, or any seaport. After the explosion, who would be able to say just whose bomb that was?
Sleep tight.
Any nation with nuclear weapons could slip them into a container ship and blow up London, or NY, or any seaport. After the explosion, who would be able to say just whose bomb that was?
Sleep tight.
I guess the difference in the lopsided results of this thread is Mugabe crossed the line, while saddam hasn't for awhile. Always running up to it but stopping short. Whatever threshold Europe is looking for prior to action might be a bitter pill to swallow.
Why would Saddam want to attack London? From what I can gather a large proportion of his supporters, and other terroist cells, are living there on benefit - he wouldn't want to harm the Al Qa'eda kindergarten now, would he?
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The Ministry of Defence dismissed the report, saying the exercise had "nothing to do" with the situation in Zimbabwe.
LoL........... Like a famous US General said, on the night of 5/6/44...
"Right, let's go" we'll need a damn sight more than 250 paras though..
>>>>> Straight in, destroy the Zim Air Force on the ground, or in the air, secure 2 airports and some of the Zim Air force forward airfields,and 2 or more landing strips. Secure Route Gold with RTR and Sabre Squadrons, with fighting "Rover Patrols and temporary strongholds to keep the roads open to the SA border. Bomb the barracks and Military installations back to the Stone Age, with AAC and Harrier Force operating "Cab-Ranks" to keep the other sides heads down. Accidentally pickle several tonnes of CBU's overhead Casa Mugabe, but make sure we get everyone out we have to, because reprocussions and reprisals will be dreadful.
Time in country? 7 days tops. Mind you, the Israelis moved all the Black Jews out of Ethiopia in one night....
LoL........... Like a famous US General said, on the night of 5/6/44...
"Right, let's go" we'll need a damn sight more than 250 paras though..
>>>>> Straight in, destroy the Zim Air Force on the ground, or in the air, secure 2 airports and some of the Zim Air force forward airfields,and 2 or more landing strips. Secure Route Gold with RTR and Sabre Squadrons, with fighting "Rover Patrols and temporary strongholds to keep the roads open to the SA border. Bomb the barracks and Military installations back to the Stone Age, with AAC and Harrier Force operating "Cab-Ranks" to keep the other sides heads down. Accidentally pickle several tonnes of CBU's overhead Casa Mugabe, but make sure we get everyone out we have to, because reprocussions and reprisals will be dreadful.
Time in country? 7 days tops. Mind you, the Israelis moved all the Black Jews out of Ethiopia in one night....
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From todays Electronic Herald
Pilots back war on Mugabe not Iraq, says poll
IAN BRUCE
MOST of Britain's front-line RAF and Royal Navy pilots would rather fight to depose Robert Mugabe, Zimbabwe's land-grabbing president, than wage America's war for regime change in Iraq, an unofficial website poll suggests.
It showed that 87.7% of the 122 military fliers who voted opted for "ending ethnic genocide by starvation" in Zimbabwe before tackling Saddam Hussein.
The UK armed forces currently have about 250 combat-ready jet pilots, with another 90 to 100 in training.
The poll was carried out on the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network, a site with over 70 forums dedicated to aviation topics and 53,000 registered members.
The military aircrew forum on the website, which has been running since 1995, was used recently to enlist the support of MPs and help organise the campaign to clear the names of the two RAF Chinook pilots blamed by senior officers for the 1994 crash on the Mull of Kintyre which wiped out most of Northern Ireland's senior intelligence officers.
It also became a major location for informed debate on the Ministry of Defence's controversial decision to axe the two remaining Sea Harrier squadrons, a move which will leave British naval task forces without fighter cover until 2015.
Because the site is monitored by the MoD, pilots posting comments use nicknames like "Flygunz", "Ark Royal", "Captain Sand Dune" and "Topgun" to conceal their identities. Serving officers are barred from commenting publicly on issues involving government policy and can be disciplined for speaking out without permission.
A series of lively debates on Mr Mugabe's dispossession of white farmers led to the unofficial poll of the pilots who would have to play a leading role in any UK contribution to a campaign against Saddam Hussein.
One posting read: "Call me cynical, but if Mugabe were white and trying to commit genocide against black people, we would be half way to Africa right now.
"The six million who now face starvation because of his policy are all in electoral districts which voted against him."
An MoD source said yesterday: "Members of the armed services do not formulate government policy. They are there to carry it out. Straw polls may or may not reflect feeling within the forces, but are irrelevant in the wider context."
- Aug 30th
Pilots back war on Mugabe not Iraq, says poll
IAN BRUCE
MOST of Britain's front-line RAF and Royal Navy pilots would rather fight to depose Robert Mugabe, Zimbabwe's land-grabbing president, than wage America's war for regime change in Iraq, an unofficial website poll suggests.
It showed that 87.7% of the 122 military fliers who voted opted for "ending ethnic genocide by starvation" in Zimbabwe before tackling Saddam Hussein.
The UK armed forces currently have about 250 combat-ready jet pilots, with another 90 to 100 in training.
The poll was carried out on the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network, a site with over 70 forums dedicated to aviation topics and 53,000 registered members.
The military aircrew forum on the website, which has been running since 1995, was used recently to enlist the support of MPs and help organise the campaign to clear the names of the two RAF Chinook pilots blamed by senior officers for the 1994 crash on the Mull of Kintyre which wiped out most of Northern Ireland's senior intelligence officers.
It also became a major location for informed debate on the Ministry of Defence's controversial decision to axe the two remaining Sea Harrier squadrons, a move which will leave British naval task forces without fighter cover until 2015.
Because the site is monitored by the MoD, pilots posting comments use nicknames like "Flygunz", "Ark Royal", "Captain Sand Dune" and "Topgun" to conceal their identities. Serving officers are barred from commenting publicly on issues involving government policy and can be disciplined for speaking out without permission.
A series of lively debates on Mr Mugabe's dispossession of white farmers led to the unofficial poll of the pilots who would have to play a leading role in any UK contribution to a campaign against Saddam Hussein.
One posting read: "Call me cynical, but if Mugabe were white and trying to commit genocide against black people, we would be half way to Africa right now.
"The six million who now face starvation because of his policy are all in electoral districts which voted against him."
An MoD source said yesterday: "Members of the armed services do not formulate government policy. They are there to carry it out. Straw polls may or may not reflect feeling within the forces, but are irrelevant in the wider context."
- Aug 30th
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I think that we have to accept that Bush is going to knock on Saddam's door with or without the approval of anyone.
Therefore. the question is "should we go to Zimbabwe"?
For what it is worth,I think we should!!
The question really is "can we"? Not questioning the ability of the UK forces but if Whitehall does not cough up some more dosh soon we won't have the kit to fight with (anyone know how to make bow and arrow...).
But it must be remembered that we must have the money to house/feed people who murder innocent kids even if it means that the guys protecting the UK or it's interests do not have the right kit. Mr Blair and his buddies should get their priorities right or find another country to ruin...
844
Therefore. the question is "should we go to Zimbabwe"?
For what it is worth,I think we should!!
The question really is "can we"? Not questioning the ability of the UK forces but if Whitehall does not cough up some more dosh soon we won't have the kit to fight with (anyone know how to make bow and arrow...).
But it must be remembered that we must have the money to house/feed people who murder innocent kids even if it means that the guys protecting the UK or it's interests do not have the right kit. Mr Blair and his buddies should get their priorities right or find another country to ruin...
844
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Sorry, I just don't understand the logic behind this support for 'going in to sort out Mugabe'.
Don't you guys remember? Its not so long ago that we got out of Africa and made the decision to wind up the rest of the Empire. Now just because you don't like the results you can't just decide to go back in again and re-start the whole shebang.
And why just pick on Mugabe? The rest of the newly independent
African countries are just as bad. Nigeria, Botswana, Congo, Mozambique.... in fact the whole darn continent. It's just that Mugabe is getting most of the press becuase he happens to be beating up the whites as well as the locals.
So what do you suggest we do...go in and sort out the whole continent? Come on, get real!
Don't you guys remember? Its not so long ago that we got out of Africa and made the decision to wind up the rest of the Empire. Now just because you don't like the results you can't just decide to go back in again and re-start the whole shebang.
And why just pick on Mugabe? The rest of the newly independent
African countries are just as bad. Nigeria, Botswana, Congo, Mozambique.... in fact the whole darn continent. It's just that Mugabe is getting most of the press becuase he happens to be beating up the whites as well as the locals.
So what do you suggest we do...go in and sort out the whole continent? Come on, get real!
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Percy.
It's all about famine prevention and justice. White farmers are an issue, sure, but the greater cause is the fight against tyranny. Education in Africa is available only to the privilidged few. It needs to be available to all if the riches of the land and the capabilities of the masses is to be realised. This will never be achieved if a small minority of educated blacks deprive their fellow people of a proper education in order to exploit and plunder.
I grow weary, appeal after appeal. I've thrust my hands deep into my pockets to stave off Ethiopean famines and Flood victims but now I've had enough. Heads need to be banged together, evil needs to be eradicated. New regimes and proper infrastructures need to be installed and wealth distibuted evenly and democratically.
The paradox in Zimbabwe is that death (brought about by military intervention) will mean life for the innocents who so desparately deserve it.
Dubbya's not clever enough to realise the consequences of an invasion of Iraq, he's more concerned about a baseball strike. He may even believe that's it's all about settling a family score or redress for Sep 11, well I'm sure the cheifs of staff know otherwise. it's all about oil that won't be flowing out of Saudi when the world realises that they are the inspiration and backers of islamic terrorism
It's all about famine prevention and justice. White farmers are an issue, sure, but the greater cause is the fight against tyranny. Education in Africa is available only to the privilidged few. It needs to be available to all if the riches of the land and the capabilities of the masses is to be realised. This will never be achieved if a small minority of educated blacks deprive their fellow people of a proper education in order to exploit and plunder.
I grow weary, appeal after appeal. I've thrust my hands deep into my pockets to stave off Ethiopean famines and Flood victims but now I've had enough. Heads need to be banged together, evil needs to be eradicated. New regimes and proper infrastructures need to be installed and wealth distibuted evenly and democratically.
The paradox in Zimbabwe is that death (brought about by military intervention) will mean life for the innocents who so desparately deserve it.
Dubbya's not clever enough to realise the consequences of an invasion of Iraq, he's more concerned about a baseball strike. He may even believe that's it's all about settling a family score or redress for Sep 11, well I'm sure the cheifs of staff know otherwise. it's all about oil that won't be flowing out of Saudi when the world realises that they are the inspiration and backers of islamic terrorism
Last edited by myrddin; 30th Aug 2002 at 21:48.
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Depending on whose stat's you use, it could be as high as 50%.
Some African nations now have a life expectancy of under 40 years, and dropping.
http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite.jsp?page=Country
Actuaries are forecasting life expectancy of 27 years in some African nations, and life insurance is impossible to buy.
Some African nations now have a life expectancy of under 40 years, and dropping.
http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite.jsp?page=Country
Actuaries are forecasting life expectancy of 27 years in some African nations, and life insurance is impossible to buy.
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If that's true, it may be yet another case of the solution being contained within the problem...or the problem being contained within the solution, if you prefer.
But it doesn't address the immediate concern of a large number of Our People having unpleasant things done to them by an evil and corrupt dictator not of their choosing, for which the same cannot be said of Iraq.
If you weigh up Britain's options in a mercenary fashion;
Zimbabwe:
*You get to rescue some British passport holders
*You get some minerals which you don't have to share with Uncle Spam
*You get a change of dictator at the top
*it's over fairly quickly, at relatively little cost in people and expenditure, and it probably won't destabilise the world and escalate into something else.
Iraq:
*you get to rescue some Iraqis and Kurds
*Uncle Spam gets some oil which he doesn't have to share with you and probably won't
*you get a change of dictator at the top (maybe)
*it takes a long time, costs an enormous amount in money and life, and could quite possibly trigger WWIII
Of course it is always possible to do both, but Zimbabwe is probably a more pressing cause.
But it doesn't address the immediate concern of a large number of Our People having unpleasant things done to them by an evil and corrupt dictator not of their choosing, for which the same cannot be said of Iraq.
If you weigh up Britain's options in a mercenary fashion;
Zimbabwe:
*You get to rescue some British passport holders
*You get some minerals which you don't have to share with Uncle Spam
*You get a change of dictator at the top
*it's over fairly quickly, at relatively little cost in people and expenditure, and it probably won't destabilise the world and escalate into something else.
Iraq:
*you get to rescue some Iraqis and Kurds
*Uncle Spam gets some oil which he doesn't have to share with you and probably won't
*you get a change of dictator at the top (maybe)
*it takes a long time, costs an enormous amount in money and life, and could quite possibly trigger WWIII
Of course it is always possible to do both, but Zimbabwe is probably a more pressing cause.
From an open source (ST):
Blair has a long way to go to convince Bush, however, as so far the president has merely acknowledged to the prime minister the "minuses as well as the pluses" of pre-emptive action.
He faces growing resistance in Britain to military action and even the threat that Britain's armed forces may defy an order to fight. Ministry of Defence lawyers are set to tell the government that the legal case to attack Iraq is not strong enough and that armed services could refuse to join an invasion, fearing they could contravene international law.
Martin Hemming, the defence ministry's legal adviser, is expected to warn senior government officials at a meeting this week that an attack on Iraq requires UN backing or evidence that Saddam is preparing hostilities. British military personnel risk being summoned before the soon-to-be-established International Criminal Court (ICC) and charged with war crimes if they are involved in illegal military action.
Blair has a long way to go to convince Bush, however, as so far the president has merely acknowledged to the prime minister the "minuses as well as the pluses" of pre-emptive action.
He faces growing resistance in Britain to military action and even the threat that Britain's armed forces may defy an order to fight. Ministry of Defence lawyers are set to tell the government that the legal case to attack Iraq is not strong enough and that armed services could refuse to join an invasion, fearing they could contravene international law.
Martin Hemming, the defence ministry's legal adviser, is expected to warn senior government officials at a meeting this week that an attack on Iraq requires UN backing or evidence that Saddam is preparing hostilities. British military personnel risk being summoned before the soon-to-be-established International Criminal Court (ICC) and charged with war crimes if they are involved in illegal military action.
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Here is an article on this subject by Sam Francis, a sydicated columnist.
http://www.vdare.com/francis/zimbabwe_disaster.htm
Indeed, what DID we expect?
http://www.vdare.com/francis/zimbabwe_disaster.htm
Indeed, what DID we expect?
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Poll
It's unanimous. In the absence of hard facts from Washington and the repercussions of military action in Iraq, contributors to this forum are not prepared to go to war on behalf of President Dubbya. All please see Romeo and Juliet Act 3 scene 1 Prince's reply to Monague " Mercy but murders, pardoning those that kill"