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When Britain Nuked America....Twice!

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When Britain Nuked America....Twice!

Old 23rd Mar 2021, 15:32
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When Britain Nuked America....Twice!

When Britain Nuked America....Twice!

Have just found this on y, tube. I can't find if it has already been discussed on this forum. If it has, can some nice person direct me to the thread? I would hope that there may be some of the aircrew still with us who remember this operation.

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Old 24th Mar 2021, 07:19
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I can't get the video clip but there was a book published in the mid 1960s which turned the true story into a novel. I seem to recall that when the novel revealed some of the tactics, it caused a bit of a stink.

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Old 24th Mar 2021, 07:57
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sky_Shield

Operation Sky Shield

https://vulcantothesky.org/articles/...on-sky-shield/


https://www.airspacemag.com/history-...-test-3119878/

Under the Radar V-Bomber novel
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 08:08
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Originally Posted by Old-Duffer View Post
I can't get the video clip but there was a book published in the mid 1960s which turned the true story into a novel. I seem to recall that when the novel revealed some of the tactics, it caused a bit of a stink.

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The Penetrators The Penetrators
- can't comment on its accuracy or authenticity but I enjoyed it (and no you can't have my copy! ).
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 08:56
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My older brother was a BE Air Radar Mechanic trainee at Cosford in 1961/62 and he told me that according to their instructors we'd sent in Victors at low altitude as well which successfully penetrated the US defences because they simply never expected a low level strike and their air defence radar wasn't set up for one.
Talking to a guy from Strike Command Bombing School when I was a Lindholme in 1973, he told me that Chapman Pincher had gone along on one of the attackers but I don't see how this was possible unless they 'dropped' a crewmember.
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 10:01
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but I don't see how this was possible unless they 'dropped' a crewmember.
Put him in the jump seat as they would their crew chief.
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 11:13
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There's room for 7 on a Vulcan so it's quite possible.
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 13:01
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Salute!

Great book, The Penetrators.

I was in Air Defense Command during that time period and the political Skybolt theme of the book was appropriate. We later developed the SRAM, but it was not the deterrent the Skybolt represented. I also understand the British resentment. I should remind all that at the time we had a Secretary of Defense that had several problematic programs, the two I recall most vividly was the TFX and Skybolt.

As an active interceptor pilot at the time in the VooDoo, I can tell you that a good ECM troop in the Buff could create havoc. I chased a B-58 across the state of South Dakota one night in 1967 and we could never get a satisfactory lock-on for the Genie system and I finally used the IR Falcon missiles with our IR steering. , We could get good enough range to ensure the missile had a high pK. This was part of a a large exercise we would run every year over the U.S. I don't think the RCAF was in that one, although we had many in which I flew north from Grand Forks over Lake Winnipeg far enough to see Hudson Bay, heh he, while our RCAF friends went even further north waiting for the Bears and Bisons.

So the attack seems plausible, although I suspect there would have been more losses than the book asserts.

Gums sends...

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Old 24th Mar 2021, 15:20
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As a 15/16 year old I used to go gliding at Marham. I was told
a Marham crew followed a civilian aircraft into New York (?), then 'attacked'.
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 15:46
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Originally Posted by esa-aardvark View Post
As a 15/16 year old I used to go gliding at Marham. I was told
a Marham crew followed a civilian aircraft into New York (?), then 'attacked'.
Hm sounds suspiciously like a book I was told about where the daily Trident from Heathrow to Moscow flew all the way there with a Buccaneer tucked underneath him.
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 15:53
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Seem to remember it was a ruse used by Martin Caidin in his novel "Anywhere Anytime", smuggling fighters across the border into Mexico under cover of a DC-4 or something.
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 17:40
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Originally Posted by gums View Post
Salute!


...........As an active interceptor pilot at the time in the VooDoo, I can tell you that a good ECM troop in the Buff could create havoc. I chased a B-58 across the state of South Dakota one night in 1967 and we could never get a satisfactory lock-on for the Genie system and I finally used the IR Falcon missiles with our IR steering.......

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Hey Gums, can you provide a bit more on the "lock-on" for the Genie? As I believe Genie was unguided did the Genie system have an interlock that required a radar lock-on (aircrafts radar) before allowing launch? Could you just point and shoot in theory and hope it gets close-enough? This last weekend I did my first visit to the excellent Warner-Robbins museum and they proudly have both the F-102 and F-106 on display with their doors open and Flacons installed on the rails, the F-101's need a bit of work. Nothing screams cold war like unguided special weapons, and I have been very interested in these systems, and SAGE etc. Thank you.
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 17:57
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
Hm sounds suspiciously like a book I was told about where the daily Trident from Heathrow to Moscow flew all the way there with a Buccaneer tucked underneath him.
And when the Trident landed.........?
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Old 24th Mar 2021, 19:31
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Salute!

Np, sandiego, not classified best I know. and for all...

The Hughes system we had in the 101 and 106 for the Genie was basically a computing lead collision gunsight. It calculated an impact point in front of the target, at which point the nuke detonated. The Genie was unguided and a huge bullet. I fired one at Tyndall and the thing zoomed out from our plane and almost grazed the drone before the spotting charge went off out in front. It went out like a bullet.

The Hughes system set a time of flight in the warhead, so we had a bullet that would explode after a few seconds. Seems to me that the manual backup mode used about 5 seconds.[EDIT: In fact, after remembering some systems after I had to quit flying, I am now thinking that the basic concept was actually the 5 second +/- time of flight that our analog computer was shooting for. BTW, when I say analog, it was not all electronic. Our "computer" actually had mechanical gears and resolvers and synchros and.... The cosmic electronics were in the Hughes radar that had "internal lobing" versus the conical scan in the early systems like the F-102 and such.]

The Genie had the advantage of no onboard electronics for guidance, so you could not jam it once it left my plane.

Our steering was on a small scope in the front seat. The RIO would lock on and then tell me "you got the dot".

The night I had trouble was because the RIO kept trying to upgrade the firing solution and the B-58 EWO kept using a range gate stealer and so every few seconds we would have to start over. However, we had the IR-RDR slave mode and could still get good range for our Falcon heaters.

Gums sends...

Last edited by gums; 24th Mar 2021 at 22:49. Reason: added
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 07:58
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Originally Posted by dctyke View Post
And when the Trident landed.........?
By that time, the Bucc had already broken away and dropped its load (a message saying 'you have been bombed') in Re Square.

It's actually quite feasible for 2 aircraft to do this.
One Farnborough Airshow, I was given an inbound release on a Yak 42 from somewhere in Bulgaria. He was carrying support for a Sokol Jastreb trainer which had also filed a flight plan but wasn't 'live' so I assumed was probably using military radar units instead of civil units.
When the Yak came on frequency, I asked how many persons on board; he replied '20 on the big aircraft and 2 on the little one'.
Eh? I could only see one blip on radar but I warned the tower that although we hadn't had a live estimate for the Jastreb, don't be surprised if he arrives with the Yak.
Sure enough that's what happened; the Jastreb had flown all the way across Europe from Bulgaria in close formation with the Yak and none of the en-route ATCCs including London ATCC had been aware!!

Last edited by chevvron; 25th Mar 2021 at 09:36.
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 14:50
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Originally Posted by gums View Post
Salute!

Np, sandiego, not classified best I know. and for all...

The Hughes system we had in the 101 and 106 for the Genie was basically a computing lead collision gunsight. It calculated an impact point in front of the target, at which point the nuke detonated. The Genie was unguided and a huge bullet. I fired one at Tyndall and the thing zoomed out from our plane and almost grazed the drone before the spotting charge went off out in front. It went out like a bullet.

The Hughes system set a time of flight in the warhead, so we had a bullet that would explode after a few seconds. Seems to me that the manual backup mode used about 5 seconds.[EDIT: In fact, after remembering some systems after I had to quit flying, I am now thinking that the basic concept was actually the 5 second +/- time of flight that our analog computer was shooting for. BTW, when I say analog, it was not all electronic. Our "computer" actually had mechanical gears and resolvers and synchros and.... The cosmic electronics were in the Hughes radar that had "internal lobing" versus the conical scan in the early systems like the F-102 and such.]

The Genie had the advantage of no onboard electronics for guidance, so you could not jam it once it left my plane.

Our steering was on a small scope in the front seat. The RIO would lock on and then tell me "you got the dot".

The night I had trouble was because the RIO kept trying to upgrade the firing solution and the B-58 EWO kept using a range gate stealer and so every few seconds we would have to start over. However, we had the IR-RDR slave mode and could still get good range for our Falcon heaters.

Gums sends...
Thank you for taking the time Gums, much appreciated! Not a lot out there about about the 101 VooDoo. My great uncle (Dick LaBarre) flew them. What did you think? Imagine they bled lots of speed with maneuvering (granted not their role). Salute back at ya!
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 15:17
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Salute!

Can go on about the Voodoo, but prolly best on its own thread, and we might even get some other others to contribute. Imagine a thread about an airplane from RCAF and USAF versus the never ending ones about another country's planes that dominate this forum?

======
The plane was made to go fast and climb, which it did. At normal holding and maneuvering CAS up at 35,000 ft, it would burble in a turn with over 30 deg of bank, he heh. That was about 0.8 M Down low, no problem but still about 2 gees at 300, then another gee for every 50 kts.

It climbed as good as the Viper, and the flight manual is available. Above 25,000 we climbed supersonic for best rate. On cold days at Grand Forks, like zero to 10 or so, our burner takeoff roll was about 3,000 feet or so if we had only internal fuel, and our sqd policy was to fly clean except on exercises where we were fragged for CAP. Bur the alert birds were clean.

At 49,500 (pressure suit rules), we could cruise at 1.15 M or so, with one engine at mil and the other using min burner. We did that as tgts for other folks. Come outta burner, pull back to idle and roll over. Stayed supersonic in idle going down maybe 30 to 40 deg dive until 35,000 or so. The game we played was to see if we could stay at idle until short final back home from 100 miles away. For that you didn't dive but just turned easy and picked up 275 or so.

Fire control system was very good for its time, and maybe the F-4D was better and also had the air to ground stuff. The hydraulically tuned maggie and the "internal lobing" on the waveguide as very good for tracking.

... Gums sends..

Last edited by gums; 25th Mar 2021 at 15:23. Reason: added
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 18:39
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Vulcan and Voodoo

In November 1978, the WIWOL brother of one of our Vulcan Flt Cdrs was on exchange with 416 Sqn at CFB Chatham on the CF-101B. I'd been guesting on another crew for a Combined Ranger to Goose and Offutt. After the OBs, we returned to Goose; the Nav Rad on our crew had some influence, so a little playtime was agreed with 416. Simple rules - we would do an airfield attack and they would intercept us...

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the CF-101B hoofed off a head sector Genie, which would doubtless have vapourised a few cubic miles of sky and anything in it. Dashed unsporting!! But then they'd planned a stern conversion for an IR shot (AIM-4, I guess) - and we weren't having any of that. Fortunately 'Mongo', our Nav Rad, was a 'fishpool' ace and a turning flght ensued. The Vulcan could only manage around 2.3 G, but that rather surprised the Voodoo mates, whose V-sub-C to avoid pitch-up was something enormous, meaning that we were soon inside them, tracking nicely and wishing we had an AIM-9 or two...

After KIO, we landed at Chatham, whereupon the Voodoo crew replayed the tape they'd made. All had been going according to plan until the merge, whereupon the back-seater called "Where'd he go?". Much grunting and cursing then followed, culminating in "Ah heck, how did ya let something THAT big get behind us...eh??".

A sociable evening followed, involving 'Screech'. The next day 'Animal' and I tossed up for the back seat ride which was on offer; fortunately he won as I had a hangover from hell! A very quiet trip back to Goose, then the following day back to Sunny Scampton.

We later heard that the experience had been reported back to Ottawa and had reinforced the Canadian New Fighter Aircraft requirement need for an agile fighter to replace the CF-101B!
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Old 25th Mar 2021, 19:04
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Cool Gums - relax - stay calm!

"a thread about an airplane from RCAF and USAF versus the never ending ones about another country's planes that dominate this forum"

Why would this forum not do so?

There are many quite rightly generous comments about experiences on your side of the pond - and if you hadn't been so difficult in 1776, perhaps we could have come to an agreed hairstyle to suit your Donald and our Boris that all would think smart and appropriate.

We are, I think, still on the same side......!!

Salute - or best wishes....

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Old 25th Mar 2021, 23:29
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Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
In November 1978, the WIWOL brother of one of our Vulcan Flt Cdrs was on exchange with 416 Sqn at CFB Chatham on the CF-101B. I'd been guesting on another crew for a Combined Ranger to Goose and Offutt. After the OBs, we returned to Goose; the Nav Rad on our crew had some influence, so a little playtime was agreed with 416. Simple rules - we would do an airfield attack and they would intercept us...

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the CF-101B hoofed off a head sector Genie, which would doubtless have vapourised a few cubic miles of sky and anything in it. Dashed unsporting!! But then they'd planned a stern conversion for an IR shot (AIM-4, I guess) - and we weren't having any of that. Fortunately 'Mongo', our Nav Rad, was a 'fishpool' ace and a turning flght ensued. The Vulcan could only manage around 2.3 G, but that rather surprised the Voodoo mates, whose V-sub-C to avoid pitch-up was something enormous, meaning that we were soon inside them, tracking nicely and wishing we had an AIM-9 or two...

After KIO, we landed at Chatham, whereupon the Voodoo crew replayed the tape they'd made. All had been going according to plan until the merge, whereupon the back-seater called "Where'd he go?". Much grunting and cursing then followed, culminating in "Ah heck, how did ya let something THAT big get behind us...eh??".

A sociable evening followed, involving 'Screech'. The next day 'Animal' and I tossed up for the back seat ride which was on offer; fortunately he won as I had a hangover from hell! A very quiet trip back to Goose, then the following day back to Sunny Scampton.

We later heard that the experience had been reported back to Ottawa and had reinforced the Canadian New Fighter Aircraft requirement need for an agile fighter to replace the CF-101B!
Very interesting, the Genie had a nuclear warhead as you point out, but I was not aware that the Canadian CF-101s were fitted with them.
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