Fast Hawk
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In the early days of the Hawk I believe a few pilots did push the high speed dive to see if it would go supersonic. I recall some of the old hands like Dougie Mee saying not to bother as it became rather unstable in the transonic region. The English Electric Lightning on the other hand would slip through Mach 1 with ease in cold power as I came close to doing over Louth Lincs in 1985. I thought the recent boom incident was a QRA scramble?
Super Hawk
It was actually very common to go supersonic in the Hawk.
Back when I was a student on 208 Sqn (2002) it was a standard part of the student night flying syllabus. We would climb to 45000’, roll inverted and point out towards the Irish Sea until the CSI said M1.0.
There were some interesting handling characteristics to be aware of but nothing scary.
I was never a Hawk T1 air test pilot but I was (am) on the Hawk T2. I can’t vouch for the T1 test schedule but I can say that on the T2 the idea is to get close to, but not exceed, the Mach.
I also remember a load of screen grabs on the wall in the Ops room at 419 Sqn (CFB Cold Lake) showing that a Hawk 115 had comfortably exceeded the Mach. I can’t remember exactly how much by though.
So, these things happen (accidental boomers) and yes the Hawk can do it but you need to try quite hard!
BV
Back when I was a student on 208 Sqn (2002) it was a standard part of the student night flying syllabus. We would climb to 45000’, roll inverted and point out towards the Irish Sea until the CSI said M1.0.
There were some interesting handling characteristics to be aware of but nothing scary.
I was never a Hawk T1 air test pilot but I was (am) on the Hawk T2. I can’t vouch for the T1 test schedule but I can say that on the T2 the idea is to get close to, but not exceed, the Mach.
I also remember a load of screen grabs on the wall in the Ops room at 419 Sqn (CFB Cold Lake) showing that a Hawk 115 had comfortably exceeded the Mach. I can’t remember exactly how much by though.
So, these things happen (accidental boomers) and yes the Hawk can do it but you need to try quite hard!
BV
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Damm having my earphones in. F15s were doing their normal stuff over the house today. Supersonic Adour over Narfalk! Bet the test pilot will have a chat with the boss or Harry.
Back in the day when the Hawks were relatively new into service going supersonic was a programmed syllabus sortie flown during the day as part of the course. It needed a shallow dive and from memory we had to exceed M1.2 to be truly supersonic. I think we achieved M1.3 but my memory is fuzzy after all this time.
MM
MM
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So, these things happen (accidental boomers) and yes the Hawk can do it but you need to try quite hard!
During one of the earlier sorties looking at transonic handling I was enjoying the cobblestones & the tail wagging when my QFI told me to slow down, we were at M0.99 & overland. We were at max chat & in a shallow dive so I can’t imagine it would have taken much more to ‘break the sound barrier’.
It would be another 30 years before I did get to finally break it, in a Typhoon.
The Mach run was one of the few things you could do at night. I recall having to be over the sea, and pointing away from land during the run. Quite a pitchy ride with the main altimeter showing an Off flag because it couldn't keep up with displaying the correct altitude as it unwound! Wasn't 1.2 the limit in the T1? Recovery to subsonic was even more pitchy!! 🤔
Yes, I’m sure 1.2 was the limit, but it would’ve taken a big effort to get anywhere near it. I don’t think I ever saw more than about 1.06. As Bob says, some of the handling characteristics were ‘interesting’, particularly the differential shockwave formation that could happen around M.96...
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As Miles says, it was a standard syllabus item at 4 FTS in the eary 80s. Go supersonic in a shallow dive, observe wing drop, back home for tea and cookies.
We did a boom run both dual and solo on the proper swept-wing trainer, the Folland pocket rocket. Up to FL400 under 'Western Radar', roll inverted and pitch to 30 deg nose down, then roll erect and hold 40 deg. Watch the IMN, no drama, explore the control feel in pitch, then roll left through 300 deg and recover right to S&L. No wrecks, nobody drownded, nothing to laugh at at all. Except for one chap on the course who cocked up the rolling maneouvre and pulled through achieving some colossal IMN value until he recovered at about FL100!
Then a boom run on the Hunter refresher course; even the GT6 wasn't as keen to go supersonic as the Gnat was. Whereas Puddy took me to M1.2-ish in the T7 on an airtest after looking for the Irish ferry - before slowing down to well below 100KIAS with lots of buffeting and general excitement as we were checking out a reported aileron issue.
Whereas the Hawk (or JP 6 as some termed it) had nothing like the pleasant transonic handling of the Gnat / Hunter. Directional stability was a bit weird too, although we didn't have the extended fin trailing edge fillet when I flew it, so that might have been part of the issue.
Then a boom run on the Hunter refresher course; even the GT6 wasn't as keen to go supersonic as the Gnat was. Whereas Puddy took me to M1.2-ish in the T7 on an airtest after looking for the Irish ferry - before slowing down to well below 100KIAS with lots of buffeting and general excitement as we were checking out a reported aileron issue.
Whereas the Hawk (or JP 6 as some termed it) had nothing like the pleasant transonic handling of the Gnat / Hunter. Directional stability was a bit weird too, although we didn't have the extended fin trailing edge fillet when I flew it, so that might have been part of the issue.
The Mach run was one of the few things you could do at night. I recall having to be over the sea, and pointing away from land during the run. Quite a pitchy ride with the main altimeter showing an Off flag because it couldn't keep up with displaying the correct altitude as it unwound! Wasn't 1.2 the limit in the T1? Recovery to subsonic was even more pitchy!! 🤔
Pet Hates
Do you know my least favourite thing about PPRuNe?
Its when people can find the time to come on here to make incorrect and unsubstantiated claims as if they were scientific fact. However, those same people are never able to find the time to come on and retract their statements or admit they were wrong.
I suppose one should never miss the opportunity to spin a quick WIWOL/WIWOP/WIWOB dit though.
Maybe I just got out of the wrong side of bed this morning.
BV
Its when people can find the time to come on here to make incorrect and unsubstantiated claims as if they were scientific fact. However, those same people are never able to find the time to come on and retract their statements or admit they were wrong.
I suppose one should never miss the opportunity to spin a quick WIWOL/WIWOP/WIWOB dit though.
Maybe I just got out of the wrong side of bed this morning.
BV
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Do you know my least favourite thing about PPRuNe?
Its when people can find the time to come on here to make incorrect and unsubstantiated claims as if they were scientific fact. However, those same people are never able to find the time to come on and retract their statements or admit they were wrong.
I suppose one should never miss the opportunity to spin a quick WIWOL/WIWOP/WIWOB dit though.
Maybe I just got out of the wrong side of bed this morning.
BV
Its when people can find the time to come on here to make incorrect and unsubstantiated claims as if they were scientific fact. However, those same people are never able to find the time to come on and retract their statements or admit they were wrong.
I suppose one should never miss the opportunity to spin a quick WIWOL/WIWOP/WIWOB dit though.
Maybe I just got out of the wrong side of bed this morning.
BV
Jammy
To be fair I’m not in a bad mood. I’ve just been waiting a long time to make that particular whinge. This seemed like an opportune moment.
I feel much better now.
BV
I feel much better now.
BV
A Hawk supersonic run was done at least once on TV.
Bang Goes the Theory presenter Dallas Campbell flew in the 'ASTRA' Hawk (XX341) in 2010 with Rhys Williams (Tutor with ETPS),the inside stuff was filmed in the ETPS Heli Hangar (can't remember bldg number) next to the old Control Tower.The Mach run was done over the Brizzle Channel I believe.
There is even a very brief view of my best side out on the flight line during pre taxy Flying Control Checks
Starts at 6.50
Bang Goes the Theory presenter Dallas Campbell flew in the 'ASTRA' Hawk (XX341) in 2010 with Rhys Williams (Tutor with ETPS),the inside stuff was filmed in the ETPS Heli Hangar (can't remember bldg number) next to the old Control Tower.The Mach run was done over the Brizzle Channel I believe.
There is even a very brief view of my best side out on the flight line during pre taxy Flying Control Checks
Starts at 6.50
I did it as a 16yo Air Cadet in summer 1978 in the Sim at Valley. After an uneventful takeoff, got reset and told to do continuous roll at 10 degree climb. Did that, got asked if I wanted to go supersonic. Right you're at 40,000ft. Push over into a dive (can't remember how steep) quickly so you stabilise & accelerate before losing too much height & hold the wings level. first attempt, lost control so got reset. 2nd time, -1.5G push into dive, >M1 for 6 sec max M1.06, 6.1G pulling to recovery at approx 5,000ft. Not so good on the ILS landing. At one stage I was 4.7 miles out at 25ft, I think that put me in the middle of Holyhead. It was the only Summer Camp I went on & as I let it be known I was joining-up (planned, & what I did 5 weeks later) I got to do stuff that the other cadets didn't.
Is there any truth in the rumour that it was traditional for the student pilot doing his first M1 Hawk dive to have a pair of girl friend/ wife knickers in his pocket thus creating supersonic knickers and perhaps signing them as such (if not too lacey)?
Last edited by ROC man; 28th Jan 2021 at 09:52. Reason: Typos
