Stretch the Overstretch
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If RAFP are guarding the stations, then can someone tell me how long the West and East sands at St Andrews been part of LUK ? As they seem to be patrolling roads leading to these beaches in their little white car. Especially in the summer 
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FOMere**, you are apparently under the misguided illusion that I am a snowdrop. I thought my post made it quite clear that this was not the case. Still, to look at letters on a VDU is easy - to read them may not be quite so easy for those with their own agendas.
I like to defend all trades & Branches that are down trodden each time someone like you rams it down our throats about being there to support Air Power. You seem to forget that Air Power is there to protect and support the soldier on the ground. Therefore, you do not come at the very top of the order of merit, merely a second place to the Infantryman.
TR, you also seem to be under the same misguided illusion about my job. Also the b*ll*cks about the caveat "Except the RAFP or RAF Regt" - who gave any caveat? I believe that the RAFP when they lose the gates, will also be included in the 'Airmen (Any trade)' that will have to take their turn on gate duties.
OK, so you say you are not 'Jack' but for sure, you are extremely bitter towards the RAF Police for some reason. I have always learned that there are 3 trades you try to get on with. Suppliers - it's easier to ask politely for some kit than go in and demand. Caterers - Obvious really and who wants to upset someone who can put any type of bodily discharge in your food without you knowing. Finally, the RAF Police - They can make your life hell for a minor incident if you're the person who gives them sh*t on the gate. Besides, I know from experience that they have the best and often the cheapest bars on some camps. The attitude test is so easy to pass, so why do Aircrew regularly fail?
If I were a betting man TR, I'd put money on you being a Sgt Aircrew, either in training or just out. I reach that conclusion by the total disregard (probably through naivity) for others saftey by highlighting what you see as security breaches on your Unit via a public forum. If there is an incursion at your Unit such as the one at Boscome highlighted in the Sunday Express recently, I'm sure the RAF Police boys and girls sponsored by Burtons will be paying you a visit. Well done TR.
I like to defend all trades & Branches that are down trodden each time someone like you rams it down our throats about being there to support Air Power. You seem to forget that Air Power is there to protect and support the soldier on the ground. Therefore, you do not come at the very top of the order of merit, merely a second place to the Infantryman.
TR, you also seem to be under the same misguided illusion about my job. Also the b*ll*cks about the caveat "Except the RAFP or RAF Regt" - who gave any caveat? I believe that the RAFP when they lose the gates, will also be included in the 'Airmen (Any trade)' that will have to take their turn on gate duties.
OK, so you say you are not 'Jack' but for sure, you are extremely bitter towards the RAF Police for some reason. I have always learned that there are 3 trades you try to get on with. Suppliers - it's easier to ask politely for some kit than go in and demand. Caterers - Obvious really and who wants to upset someone who can put any type of bodily discharge in your food without you knowing. Finally, the RAF Police - They can make your life hell for a minor incident if you're the person who gives them sh*t on the gate. Besides, I know from experience that they have the best and often the cheapest bars on some camps. The attitude test is so easy to pass, so why do Aircrew regularly fail?
If I were a betting man TR, I'd put money on you being a Sgt Aircrew, either in training or just out. I reach that conclusion by the total disregard (probably through naivity) for others saftey by highlighting what you see as security breaches on your Unit via a public forum. If there is an incursion at your Unit such as the one at Boscome highlighted in the Sunday Express recently, I'm sure the RAF Police boys and girls sponsored by Burtons will be paying you a visit. Well done TR.
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Ralf
Thanks for the reading lesson. I'm one of the 'down-trodden' who has to do guard because the cops don't fancy doing it. I'm far from the 'top of the order of merit' and my agenda is actually to support the 'down trodden' so they don't get fannied around standing on gates.
My overall point was that if you take anyone away from their primary duty on a regular basis, it will and does affect our primary role - to be an air force - unless, of course, your* primary job, which you signed up to do, is security !
* 'your' doesn't mean YOU !
We can go back and forward all year about the rights and wrongs of station personnel doing guard, except to say it is far from ideal. Technicians, administrators and yes, even PTI's, have primary jobs to do, but what do the RAFP contribute ?
The answer, I believe, is security, which has somehow mutated into speed traps
Thanks for the reading lesson. I'm one of the 'down-trodden' who has to do guard because the cops don't fancy doing it. I'm far from the 'top of the order of merit' and my agenda is actually to support the 'down trodden' so they don't get fannied around standing on gates.
My overall point was that if you take anyone away from their primary duty on a regular basis, it will and does affect our primary role - to be an air force - unless, of course, your* primary job, which you signed up to do, is security !
* 'your' doesn't mean YOU !
We can go back and forward all year about the rights and wrongs of station personnel doing guard, except to say it is far from ideal. Technicians, administrators and yes, even PTI's, have primary jobs to do, but what do the RAFP contribute ?
The answer, I believe, is security, which has somehow mutated into speed traps
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Get the landing net, the fish they are are a-biting........
Of course the "security breach" I mentioned wasn't fictionalised but just plausible enough to get a point across was it?
There are very similar loop holes that are being left wide open which was the point I was raising. As I said, I've raised them through the correct channels, so have colleagues and on one occasion even a concerned Joe Civvy. Reported them up the relevant chain and hey presto....nothing.
So if airing them here gets someone, somewhere to hit a large red button marked "panic" then is that a bad thing?
Of course the "security breach" I mentioned wasn't fictionalised but just plausible enough to get a point across was it?
There are very similar loop holes that are being left wide open which was the point I was raising. As I said, I've raised them through the correct channels, so have colleagues and on one occasion even a concerned Joe Civvy. Reported them up the relevant chain and hey presto....nothing.
So if airing them here gets someone, somewhere to hit a large red button marked "panic" then is that a bad thing?
Last edited by Talking Radalt; 24th Aug 2002 at 15:58.
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Naw, I'm pretty sure they won't...
However, due to an inappreciative 'Trodden' I think I'll ignore stuff like this from now, just say 'tough' and become fashionably oblivious. I don't have to do it, so who cares huh ?
I really think YOU are missing the point Scud...
Hope you get stopped for speeding
However, due to an inappreciative 'Trodden' I think I'll ignore stuff like this from now, just say 'tough' and become fashionably oblivious. I don't have to do it, so who cares huh ?
I really think YOU are missing the point Scud...
Hope you get stopped for speeding
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So if it is true that Leuchars is to open up a civvy terminal for Ryanair etc does that mean the RAFP will still want to say that they are not a security force?
will it be the normal Station guard force that guards the terminal Of course not..... The RAFP will say they are responsible for security. I can just see them walking around with the Flack jacket,Holster,Heckler and Koch MP5's,ear-piece radios. AKA Heathrow etc. surely it is just a dream...............nope it isnt!!
will it be the normal Station guard force that guards the terminal Of course not..... The RAFP will say they are responsible for security. I can just see them walking around with the Flack jacket,Holster,Heckler and Koch MP5's,ear-piece radios. AKA Heathrow etc. surely it is just a dream...............nope it isnt!!
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Cant see what all the fuss is about...
You all joined the RAF to do particular function, part of that function must surely be, security!!
Are you all not, unless non-combattant, trained in the use of firearms?? I wonder why that is.... um.... nope not the glorious 12th, but to defend your selves and your station in case of atack...
What is the difference from being on exercise and working a gate or pan access and the like to doing the whole camp?? None!!
One for the Aircrew who seem to have a little buzzing thing under their caps.....
I take it that you dont expect the RAFP to pick up FOD when they see it on their patrols? So you wont mind if it is ingested by your engines because its not their job to pick up rubbish?? I think you would be the first to point the finger at them if you knew that they ignored FOD deliberately. But where in their terms of reference does it say that a duty of the RAFP is litter collection?? It isnt. Its a function that we all do because we know what the consequences could very well be.
And as for the Pruner worried about The RAFP doing them for speed?? SLOW DOWN its easy and it doesnt hurt!! (Oh and its the pedal on the right! lift your foot slightly) What could you do with those precious few seconds that you might save by speeding around?? Boil a kettle?? I think not!!
Its a shame that The RAFP cant join in on this thread, I am sure they would have some quite interesting ideas on other trades apart from theirs, and how they would like to do things, to affect your time off!!
I personally enjoyed a break from the routine, it meant that you came into contact with others, from areas of which you would not normally have mixed with. Some people are so insular, maybe its time for them to take a good look at themselves!! IS guarding and the security of where you work and live not your concern???
You all joined the RAF to do particular function, part of that function must surely be, security!!
Are you all not, unless non-combattant, trained in the use of firearms?? I wonder why that is.... um.... nope not the glorious 12th, but to defend your selves and your station in case of atack...
What is the difference from being on exercise and working a gate or pan access and the like to doing the whole camp?? None!!
One for the Aircrew who seem to have a little buzzing thing under their caps.....
I take it that you dont expect the RAFP to pick up FOD when they see it on their patrols? So you wont mind if it is ingested by your engines because its not their job to pick up rubbish?? I think you would be the first to point the finger at them if you knew that they ignored FOD deliberately. But where in their terms of reference does it say that a duty of the RAFP is litter collection?? It isnt. Its a function that we all do because we know what the consequences could very well be.
And as for the Pruner worried about The RAFP doing them for speed?? SLOW DOWN its easy and it doesnt hurt!! (Oh and its the pedal on the right! lift your foot slightly) What could you do with those precious few seconds that you might save by speeding around?? Boil a kettle?? I think not!!
Its a shame that The RAFP cant join in on this thread, I am sure they would have some quite interesting ideas on other trades apart from theirs, and how they would like to do things, to affect your time off!!
I personally enjoyed a break from the routine, it meant that you came into contact with others, from areas of which you would not normally have mixed with. Some people are so insular, maybe its time for them to take a good look at themselves!! IS guarding and the security of where you work and live not your concern???
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Scud, and others,
Call it back-peddling, call it umbrella going up, call me stupid, irresponsible or just call me Loretta, for goodness sake.
There IS an adjacent land owner, he DOES have his own self-governing access to parts of said unit.......but then he IS a top bloke, very well vetted and the whole arrangement is official (hence my message was "fictionalised").....unless you ask the MTV Surveilllance Team who then say "Wot gate? Wot farmer?"
Interesting that the first reaction from Wiggy was to imply I was meddling in things about which I knew little and then to shift the focus of attention by threatening some kind of witch hunt.
Thanks for demonstrating my whole point Wiggy!
And DPhug,
The thing about "What is the difference from being on exercise and working a gate or pan access and the like to doing the whole camp?? None!!"
Small but significant point, exercises are about war when rules of engagament and the aftermath of a shooting are totally different to peace time vetting of visitors to a unit and any associated use of firearms, hence it should be left, in it's entirity, to a specialist trade.
As an aside but kinda relevant: Once saw a cracking TV interview of a USAF SP chap at a contentious piece of "Common" land near Newbury. A mobile missile launcher was seen to be halted by a group of soap-dodgin' tree-huggin' wimmin. He was asked:
"What do you think of just how easy it is to stop your convoys? These protestors are totally unarmed and have brought you to a stand still just by sitting in the road"
Reply (in a pure Elvis accent): "Uh-huh well ma'am, if we were at uh war, we'd uh, shoot them and drag the uh, bodies out of the way" Dead pan face, no flicker of emotion. Nice!
Call it back-peddling, call it umbrella going up, call me stupid, irresponsible or just call me Loretta, for goodness sake.
There IS an adjacent land owner, he DOES have his own self-governing access to parts of said unit.......but then he IS a top bloke, very well vetted and the whole arrangement is official (hence my message was "fictionalised").....unless you ask the MTV Surveilllance Team who then say "Wot gate? Wot farmer?"
Interesting that the first reaction from Wiggy was to imply I was meddling in things about which I knew little and then to shift the focus of attention by threatening some kind of witch hunt.
Thanks for demonstrating my whole point Wiggy!
And DPhug,
The thing about "What is the difference from being on exercise and working a gate or pan access and the like to doing the whole camp?? None!!"
Small but significant point, exercises are about war when rules of engagament and the aftermath of a shooting are totally different to peace time vetting of visitors to a unit and any associated use of firearms, hence it should be left, in it's entirity, to a specialist trade.
As an aside but kinda relevant: Once saw a cracking TV interview of a USAF SP chap at a contentious piece of "Common" land near Newbury. A mobile missile launcher was seen to be halted by a group of soap-dodgin' tree-huggin' wimmin. He was asked:
"What do you think of just how easy it is to stop your convoys? These protestors are totally unarmed and have brought you to a stand still just by sitting in the road"
Reply (in a pure Elvis accent): "Uh-huh well ma'am, if we were at uh war, we'd uh, shoot them and drag the uh, bodies out of the way" Dead pan face, no flicker of emotion. Nice!
Last edited by Talking Radalt; 26th Aug 2002 at 17:27.
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Radalt, sorry mate but you missed my point entirely. I was suggesting that on exercise you did what was necessary and also what you were told to do; A requirement to safeguard all from what ever possible threat. Has the Millitary Given up the war on terrorism?? I dont think so...
Security should be everyones concern and everyone should do their bit to assist in the whole ball game, not just bits that they like to do, or want to do. If Security was everyone elses problem who would deal with it??
If you see anyone on or near your aircraft whom you dont believe should be there, do you question them or just let them get on with it... Was that what assisted in the 911 incidents?? Complacency???
If you are not 747 FS2000 I hope I dont take a trip with you on your aircraft... Presuming you are the Captain, Who would be responsible for the security?? Oh thats right its not you is it....
Security should be everyones concern and everyone should do their bit to assist in the whole ball game, not just bits that they like to do, or want to do. If Security was everyone elses problem who would deal with it??
If you see anyone on or near your aircraft whom you dont believe should be there, do you question them or just let them get on with it... Was that what assisted in the 911 incidents?? Complacency???
If you are not 747 FS2000 I hope I dont take a trip with you on your aircraft... Presuming you are the Captain, Who would be responsible for the security?? Oh thats right its not you is it....
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The crux of this issue is finance, as the scuffers will no longer carry out control of entry/anti-terrorism duties, their trade manning will be severely reduced along with their career aspirations.. Without the offer of redundancy the average plod will eventually deduce that promotion will stagnate and join the queue to PVR. The remaining RAFP will be free to concentrate on law enforcement and Station budget holders will be happy that guarding will be carried out at no cost. If there is to be a net reduction in the numbers of the RAFP, will there be an increase in other trades or will the savings be swallowed buy other budgets?
It’s almost flippant to say that security is everyone’s business, for most guarding never went away and it’s the RAFP who have chosen redefine their security role. The decision to return to the way things were a few years ago, in today’s very different world can only be based on money.
Since this is an Aircrew Forum I would just like to add that one SAC A/Cpl gleefully told me that his war role was to ensure that reluctant Aircrew didn’t do a bunk when the sh*t hit the fan.
It’s almost flippant to say that security is everyone’s business, for most guarding never went away and it’s the RAFP who have chosen redefine their security role. The decision to return to the way things were a few years ago, in today’s very different world can only be based on money.
Since this is an Aircrew Forum I would just like to add that one SAC A/Cpl gleefully told me that his war role was to ensure that reluctant Aircrew didn’t do a bunk when the sh*t hit the fan.
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Molesworth Hold said:
Since this is an Aircrew Forum I would just like to add that one SAC A/Cpl gleefully told me that his war role was to ensure that reluctant Aircrew didn’t do a bunk when the sh*t hit the fan.
Which believe it or not is EXACTLY what the RAFP (P&SS) did in Germany when a TACEVAL was called. If you were on local leave and did a runner, the RAFP would stop all BFG registered cars making for the autobahns and deep **** lay ahead for those caught!
T_M
Which believe it or not is EXACTLY what the RAFP (P&SS) did in Germany when a TACEVAL was called. If you were on local leave and did a runner, the RAFP would stop all BFG registered cars making for the autobahns and deep **** lay ahead for those caught!
T_M
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W B Satco
Your comment seems to follow the ill-informed, slightly vitriolic trend of many of the posts herein.
I understand Tactical Provost Wing sent a recce team to survey Kabul International Airport at a very early stage. (The story featured in RAF News). So, in fact, the RAF Police were among the first RAF personnel to set foot in the place.
Your comment seems to follow the ill-informed, slightly vitriolic trend of many of the posts herein.
I understand Tactical Provost Wing sent a recce team to survey Kabul International Airport at a very early stage. (The story featured in RAF News). So, in fact, the RAF Police were among the first RAF personnel to set foot in the place.
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Scud-U-Like
Well, having spent the best part of 4 months there, the only RAFP I saw were 2 x ATSy (plus a few more for Rapiscan duties during Loya Jirga). The RAFP may well have been part of the recce team but, as I said before, I didn't see any securing the airport.
And my point; RAFP are not meant to be gate guards - It is up to all of us to defend ourselves.
Off my soap box
Well, having spent the best part of 4 months there, the only RAFP I saw were 2 x ATSy (plus a few more for Rapiscan duties during Loya Jirga). The RAFP may well have been part of the recce team but, as I said before, I didn't see any securing the airport.
And my point; RAFP are not meant to be gate guards - It is up to all of us to defend ourselves.
Off my soap box
Last edited by Whipping Boy's SATCO; 27th Aug 2002 at 16:22.