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Britain moves to protect its defence industry

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Britain moves to protect its defence industry

Old 14th Nov 2020, 12:20
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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It's good to have an eye on who else owns shares and gains strategic influence. However new and future programs tend to become more and more costly now that software and networking get so important. Going the national route means to not be able to pay for many features as they are too expensive to fund on a national base. And then you end up with just one or two formula one cars finally for budget reasons instead of a fleet needed.
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Old 15th Nov 2020, 13:05
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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But is it wise to buy F35s when the US refuses to allow access to the source code on the software? Plus a fair number of the integrated circuits come from Taiwan, so if the PRC got cobby with Taiwan, spares could suddenly be a problem unless the tapes for the layouts and test programmes were available. Plus there are very few semiconductor plants outside Taiwan and the PRC with capability of handling 12 inch wafers and sub 0.18 micron technology - and none in the UK, although the US still has a few.
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Old 15th Nov 2020, 13:27
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly my point. So you want to fund a new semiconductor industry in the UK now? For future fighter chip hardware? How costly is this intended to become? There will be not much money left to buy some of those airplanes and operate them to keep their crews current.
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Old 15th Nov 2020, 15:22
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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"But is it wise to buy F35s when the US refuses to allow access to the source code on the software?"

as everyone says - it's a matter of cost - if you want to have access to the software you either build it yourself or in a genuine joint build like Tornado

You then have to be willing to pay all the extra taxes .... IIRC income taxes ran up to 98% in the 50's & 60's
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Old 15th Nov 2020, 15:43
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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More fundamental is, has the policy changed whereby one cannot proceed without having access to source code? Or is just ignored? Or continually waived? Either way, it isn't necessarily lack of access that's the problem, but falure to assess the implications of not having it, and making sufficient materiel and financial provision to cope. The policy exists in the first instance to force those responsible to do the assessment. If they don't, the scrutineer has to play the red card.
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Old 15th Nov 2020, 15:46
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder what code the J 20 is using ?
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Old 16th Nov 2020, 18:55
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tucumseh View Post
Not entirely accurate, although the two programmes I was involved didn't give them the full UK spec.
The UK handed over jet engine technology to Stalin for free. They reverse engineered and created the MİG 15 which attacked allies bombers in Korea and killed many pilots until the F86 came and kicked their butts.. Britain very reliable ally..
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 03:23
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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The early Rolls Royce engines used on the first migs were shared with our allies , who had just helped liberate Europe from the Evil of the National Socialist Party . Those allies were responsible for inflicting 80 percent of the casualties against the invaders and aggressors .
How long do you think Swiss neutrality would have been respected By the aggressors if the Allies were defeated ? One week or Two ?
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 12:33
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin View Post
I think HMG may still retain the proverbial Golden share in RR. This is more likely a response to Cobham - or the chip design house recently taken over by a US company?

ARM was sold to a Japanese company years ago, and it is the current Japanese owners who have sold it to a US company. Nothing that the UK Government could have done about that.

This is a two way street, most existing UK defence and aerospace companies have a substantial presence overseas, especially in the US, all from UK companies buying up US defence and Aerospace companies, some very large indeed, as in the Allinson Engine Company.

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Old 17th Nov 2020, 13:23
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fitliker View Post
The early Rolls Royce engines used on the first migs were shared with our allies , who had just helped liberate Europe from the Evil of the National Socialist Party . Those allies were responsible for inflicting 80 percent of the casualties against the invaders and aggressors .
How long do you think Swiss neutrality would have been respected By the aggressors if the Allies were defeated ? One week or Two ?
Even Stalin was surprised we handed them over apparently, we naively believed they wouldn't be able to reverse engineer them.. they also invited the Russians to visit Rolls Royce and see what we were doing and each Russian was given new shoes by the KGB with super sticky soles on them and told to walk through as much swarf as possible thus allowing the Russians to learn about the make up of some of the secret metallurgy technology RR were employing.
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Old 17th Nov 2020, 17:59
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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We did have 0.18 micron capability, but when GEC was split up, it eventually disappeared. Partly because the Taiwanese and PRC governments subsidised suitable foundries and could produce more cheaply. So we managed to lose a strategically important industry, and even the bits that were kept were eventually canned on the grounds that it was cheaper to buy from Taiwan and PRC. Sounds very like Dilbert….. Back in the 1980s, there wasn't major US military electronics program without a Plessey Semiconductors IC in it somewhere. Then management said there was no growth in military semiconductors, wanting to sell 50,000 pieces at a profit of 1 cent each instead of 1000 pieces at $5 profit each, and failing in both areas....That plant in Swindon is now a heavily chemically contaminated area of weeds - and successive governments let it happen.

Tecumseh in #25 makes the point well about source code....
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Old 19th Nov 2020, 17:39
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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All defence contractors depend on smaller companies to supply them with things such as structural conponents, machined parts, hydraulic systems, electrical components, PCBs, electronic assemblies, waveguides...

I am thinking of the suppliers of the British parts in the Swedish Grippen and the Korean jet that prevented Argentina from acquiring those aircraft.

Will Government protect them? Aside from defence, I am thinking about things like:

Medical Equipment
Civil Aerospace
Civil Marine
Power Generation and Distribution
Industrial Machinery
Construction Equipment
Telecommunications and other Communications



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Old 20th Nov 2020, 00:49
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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WEBF,

Of course it won't! It is a capitalist free trade party and most of the suppliers in most supply chains are multi-national and based all over the planet. We live in a global age and even the French are finding that to protect all of your industry is, in the end, self defeating.

Brexit is a far larger threat to all of the sectors you mention, and some of them have no real UK owned players left, Civil Aerospace and Telecommunications to name just two.
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Old 22nd Nov 2020, 23:13
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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I was talking about building supply chain resilience and protecting intellectual property.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 07:24
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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You can do it but it comes at a cost - you miss out on all the latest and more efficient kit and ideas for a start - anyone for British Leyland?
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 07:55
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Difficult to argue with much of what has already been written, but I keep coming back to it being better late than never. Just how effective it will be remains to be seen, and overlooks the more insidious ways of influencing company direction and policy. Many "Brirish" public companies are owned by shareholders whose ultimate nationality is unknown, but likely not British. Who is behind the various private equity houses and hedge funds who control and influence so much of what companies can do? If I was an unfriendly state determined to infiltrate or influence a British company, I doubt I would plan on rolling up with a takeover bid from one of my countries companies. Far too public and expensive.
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Old 23rd Nov 2020, 22:50
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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End of the day. The rot happened 60 years ago. Not when Maggie the job snatcher came in but the 50s and 60s. We had technology but our leaders were as thick and ignorant then as they are now. Investment is a dirty word as it costs. Whatever colour you wear. The interesting question is how many people on this thread have driven commerical projects to make a profit and fit the task in time and in budget? Someone sold this country away. Both colours but one colour does it more obviously than the other. I do have the question for this thread. Whom on here actually makes thinks of value for the UK to add in the coffers? Whom takes a wage bill? I work now in a service sector that did used to do the former. Furlough is the latter i will have to pay off. I have had pay cuts to help my employer survive. I bet no one on the public purse would ever consider working for 80% pay.
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 07:31
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Some truth in that Cat - but it wasn't just "the leaders". Since about 1890 anytime someone in the UK starts to make a fortune they immediately start thinking of how to sell out, buy a country estate and (maybe) a title. Occasionally you get a Jim Radcliffe ort a Dyson but they're rare - and you can bet that their kids will want to live on the proceeds rather than continue expanding.

The British don't like "pushy", "greedy" or "driven" people - and as for getting your hands dirty or industry.... Look at N Sea oil - how many people who made it all happen were even given a knighthood? Compared to the Wizards of Finance???
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Old 24th Nov 2020, 20:50
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
Some truth in that Cat - but it wasn't just "the leaders". Since about 1890 anytime someone in the UK starts to make a fortune they immediately start thinking of how to sell out, buy a country estate and (maybe) a title. Occasionally you get a Jim Radcliffe ort a Dyson but they're rare - and you can bet that their kids will want to live on the proceeds rather than continue expanding.

The British don't like "pushy", "greedy" or "driven" people - and as for getting your hands dirty or industry.... Look at N Sea oil - how many people who made it all happen were even given a knighthood? Compared to the Wizards of Finance???
No idea why you mentioned Dyson? He took the manufacturing away to the far east. My Grandfather was an example of the 50s. Company of his making tooling for the recovery of the UK. Old machines and little investment. Father forced hands into using the tools to press manufacture the items wishing to be made. NCN machinery coming in, Grandfather was more bothered about the golf course. No investment in new machines or practices. Good staff sodded off. Death was the deconstruction of engineering industries in the early 80s. I saw it. Reason the RAF was a bright star. The businesses my grandfather supported sodded off from the UK. They never came back. North Sea Oil? Answer is what the Norwiegens did compared to the UK. They didn't sell out their assets for a pitance. BTW I do not argue with your general points. Radcliffe stands alone in his support of the flag. Needs to pay for Bloodhound now mind.
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Old 25th Nov 2020, 06:50
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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" He took the manufacturing away to the far east. " - that's the point "making" vacume cleaners isn't exactly hi-tech. You want the design and marketing and financing in the UK but sticking little bits of plastic together (or watching a robot do it) isn't protecting industry - its investing in a dead end

Regretfully the story of your grandfather is replicated in a branch of our family but a generation earlier in the '30s - too busy gentrifying themselves and took their eye off the ball big time
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