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USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130

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USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130

Old 5th Oct 2020, 19:58
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Lonewolf 50, just WHY do the USN and Mreenkaw-ooh-rah not follow the clear requirements of the DoD FIH with regard to RT calls in emergency situations?

NO EXCUSE - please join the rest of the world!

Nevertheless, whoever flew that C-130 to a successful landing did an outstanding job!
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 21:53
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
Lonewolf 50, just WHY do the USN and Mreenkaw-ooh-rah b!
No need to be rude, BEagle, unless being in the RAF makes it compulsory.
I think I understand the logic on that bit of training. (And the reason that I looked it up on line was that it had been ages since I'd seen the book; it's posted on the CNATRA web site).
If not in radar contact (which is how flying was for decades before the ubiquity of radar contact became the norm) then you need to get the attention of anyone listening on the freq by saying Mayday. That gets anyone/everyone listening on the frequ to pay attention to what follows.

If you are already in radar contact, you are already talking to a controller. In that case, it's a briefer transmission simply tell them you have an emergency.

And funnily enough, almost all of the VFR training sorties I flew had a radar following (not radar contact) service in the MoA. The flight students were taught to say Mayday (non radar contact) as a standard transmission when they got that far into the checklist (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate). (And if they didn't they'd get marked off for not saying it during the simulated emergency)
Which means that the most common emergency radio call would start with Mayday by reflex, I expect.

I can see the advantage of simply telling the controller you have an emergency if you are already talking to them; it's clearer communication and he's already got you painted on his scope.

I'll defer to Westy on the controller side of that.

Your appeal to pedantry is noted, but we agree on this.
whoever flew that C-130 to a successful landing did an outstanding job!
yep.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 22:15
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Forget the AIM for a second... it has been proven time and again that "I'm declaring an emergency" works for US airspace.... seems to work even better than MAYDAY...also the AIM is advisory
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 22:39
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flighthappens View Post
A story from 42 years ago, of a zero SA player, followed by guys doing what they were taught?

In this instance the crew landed a heavily damaged (stricken?) aircraft, from a midair collision, in a field, and had clear, and understood communication with their ATC unit.

If there was a miscommunication or confusion I could understand the dilemma...
I was of the understanding that MAYDAY was to get ATC attention, yes Carl this is an emergency and should not have to be asked, minimise RT between ATC and pilot and clear everyone else off the air. But it appears you are saying a successful comms lacking in misunderstanding constitutes saying whatever you want irrelevant of supporting documentation and if this holds true for an emergency I could not see why it would not hold true in all cases. Meaning we could get rid of all those pages in the relevant doc’s and save a few trees and brain cells?

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Old 5th Oct 2020, 22:42
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dominator2 View Post
flighthappens,

The story maybe 42 year old but the lesson is still there. You make your comments with a usual Aussi lack of understanding as to what has been said.

.
I do not understand what you are saying? If you have a grip with Aussie's so be it but I suggest you play the ball and not the country.

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Old 5th Oct 2020, 22:56
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by finestkind View Post
I was of the understanding that MAYDAY was to get ATC attention, yes Carl this is an emergency and should not have to be asked, minimise RT between ATC and pilot and clear everyone else off the air. But it appears you are saying a successful comms lacking in misunderstanding constitutes saying whatever you want irrelevant of supporting documentation and if this holds true for an emergency I could not see why it would not hold true in all cases. Meaning we could get rid of all those pages in the relevant doc’s and save a few trees and brain cells?
Finest Kind, have you been drinking? I’m actually not 100% sure of what you are trying to say. I think you are saying that there should be agreed upon SOP’s, heck we could even call them standards, to which I agree. I Also agree that if someone has priority you should take pains not to clutter up the radio. I’ve also been taught (And taught) that if I cant find the perfect standard phrase that clear comms is best.

Re the other stuff, I am saying a single case is a data point. It’s definitely not a trend line, particularly when it was 4 decades ago.

I’m also highlighting that in this particular case, there was a an exchange of clear, and expected phraseology between the aircraft and controller. It communicated the nature of the problem efficiently and without ambiguity. The fact that it is different to what the RAF would do, does not in and of itself make it inferior.

For the record if it was me, I would have said ‘Mayday’ in Australia or the UK, and ‘declaring an Emergency’ in the US. Because that is what the controller was expecting.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 23:25
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Originally Posted by Pugilistic Animus View Post
Forget the AIM for a second... it has been proven time and again that "I'm declaring an emergency" works for US airspace.... seems to work even better than MAYDAY...also the AIM is advisory
That is besides the point - MAYDAY might not work in US airspace if Americans keep pretending that they fly alone, which is another threat. If a professional follows correct procedure as taught widely around the world (including in the US - it was pointed out that the FAA correct R/T is Mayday/Pan-Pan), the colloquial attitude that the US ATC are used to using/hearing will hinder and delay the necessary response as they fail to understand what the word Mayday means.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=53vhyEXXtyg
Here's a clear example of that - Helicopter calls "Mayday Mayday Mayday" and the ATC response is "Do you require any assistance". Even after another aircraft relayed the callsign and nature of emergency (engine failure). Hearing the words 'Mayday Mayday Mayday' should prime everyone on frequency (especially the controller) to listen clearly to the transmitted information so that pointless repetition of messages isn't required because the controller was focusing on another task or distracted by something.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnBWLGnrh5Q
Here's another example of US ATC failing to understand a textbook and professional emergency transmission, following up with unnecessary questions such as "are you declaring and emergency", and to add to the list while we're at it, failing to understand the meaning of "standby".
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 00:00
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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True dat! On an Aviation forum that shall not be named, two American Part 121 pilots we’re going on about how “Niner” for the number 9 was some comic book pronunciation. When pointed to the specifics of the FAA AIM and how the ICAO phonetic voice was stated said, “I more skimmed over it than read it”. That’s two professionals. But, declaring an emergency is a hardy perennial PPRuNe argument, carry on.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 00:04
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flighthappens View Post
Finest Kind, have you been drinking? I’m actually not 100% sure of what you are trying to say. I think you are saying that there should be agreed upon SOP’s, heck we could even call them standards, to which I agree. I Also agree that if someone has priority you should take pains not to clutter up the radio. I’ve also been taught (And taught) that if I cant find the perfect standard phrase that clear comms is best.

Re the other stuff, I am saying a single case is a data point. It’s definitely not a trend line, particularly when it was 4 decades ago.

I’m also highlighting that in this particular case, there was a an exchange of clear, and expected phraseology between the aircraft and controller. It communicated the nature of the problem efficiently and without ambiguity. The fact that it is different to what the RAF would do, does not in and of itself make it inferior.

For the record if it was me, I would have said ‘Mayday’ in Australia or the UK, and ‘declaring an Emergency’ in the US. Because that is what the controller was expecting.
Thank you for your concern about my health. I hope you are well. In response to your "not 100% sure" it appears that you have got 99% of it. There are Doc's, SOPS, AIP's ABC etc, that even America have. It would be nice considering that it appears ICAO, which I think is international, is a way of standardising a lotta different thingies in different countries to an international standard was utilised even in a country that does its own thing but does agree on these standards for everyone else.

In respect to your training and using a non standard phase if you cannot find the correct one or there is not a correct one (interesting) I doubt if anyone would disagree. With MAYDAY my training, so long ago, still resonates, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if memory is in error, as MAYDAY X 3, who I am talking too, who I am, what the "f" is the problem, what I am going to do, where I am, and than how many sugars I want in my coffee. Now I apologise if I am in error with the call but given the time that it has been since being taught and instructing this and now, I am sure I will be forgiven. The point being there is a standard phase.

Your use of MAYDAY in UK or OZ is commendable but something different in the US because that is what they expect even if different from the FAA? is the twist to this thread. If you want something different to what is published than publish something different.

Last edited by finestkind; 6th Oct 2020 at 01:47.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 00:16
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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End of the day regardless of terminology used, the message got across, everyone walked away from it and he did a superb landing.

FAA use Mayday btw, see page 96 as an example, but main phraseology is page 231


https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ.../media/AIP.pdf



..

Last edited by NutLoose; 6th Oct 2020 at 00:56.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 00:49
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ApolloHeli View Post
That is besides the point - MAYDAY might not work in US airspace if Americans keep pretending that they fly alone, which is another threat. If a professional follows correct procedure as taught widely around the world (including in the US - it was pointed out that the FAA correct R/T is Mayday/Pan-Pan), the colloquial attitude that the US ATC are used to using/hearing will hinder and delay the necessary response as they fail to understand what the word Mayday means.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=53vhyEXXtyg
Here's a clear example of that - Helicopter calls "Mayday Mayday Mayday" and the ATC response is "Do you require any assistance". Even after another aircraft relayed the callsign and nature of emergency (engine failure). Hearing the words 'Mayday Mayday Mayday' should prime everyone on frequency (especially the controller) to listen clearly to the transmitted information so that pointless repetition of messages isn't required because the controller was focusing on another task or distracted by something.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnBWLGnrh5Q
Here's another example of US ATC failing to understand a textbook and professional emergency transmission, following up with unnecessary questions such as "are you declaring and emergency", and to add to the list while we're at it, failing to understand the meaning of "standby".
Don't shoot the messenger that's just how it is.
​​​​Anyway how many of you say "tree" and "fower"? That's also in the AIM
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 01:16
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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I have no concerns with the use of military gibberish being used within that civil airspace released to military use/control. That said, I have real concerns when that same military gibberish is used in normal national or international civil airspace. It is professional and safer to use the applicable procedures and communication norms for the airspace in which you are operating.

It is noted also that some civil operators sound like they are chatting away on Childrens Band out in the Baja somewhere instead of employing standard ICAO procedures. As the world knows, if certain things are done a particular way in the US (or France), they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Just ask them.

CC

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Old 6th Oct 2020, 01:29
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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I have no idea why the US Military have a different RT procedure to the rest of the world (including the FAA)
Crab, when with the USN the standard MAYDAY/PAN applied, nothing else.

NutLoose's page 231 spells it all out, for the controllers their reference says,

FAA Air Traffic Control Policy effective 15 August 2019
10−1−1. EMERGENCY DETERMINATIONS
a. An emergency can be either a Distress or an Urgency condition as defined in the “Pilot/Controller Glossary.”
b. A pilot who encounters a Distress condition should declare an emergency by beginning the initial communication with the word “Mayday,” preferably repeated three times. For an Urgency condition, the word “Pan-Pan” should be used in the same manner.
c. If the words “Mayday” or “Pan-Pan” are not used and you are in doubt that a situation constitutes an emergency or potential emergency, handle it as though it were an emergency.
d. Because of the infinite variety of possible emergency situations, specific procedures cannot be prescribed. However, when you believe an emergency exists or is imminent, select and pursue a course of action which appears to be most appropriate under the circumstances and which most nearly conforms to the instructions in this manual.
The bush lawyers can now argue about the meaning of the word "should", and the why para "c" might exist.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...r/7110.65Y.pdf
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 01:35
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever View Post
That was a brilliant rant
They are all wrong. The nav light was actually changed in the first line, so the answer is one.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 11:06
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Changing the subject slightly, does anyone have any idea how the Herc will be salvaged?
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 11:39
  #176 (permalink)  
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Changing the subject slightly, does anyone have any idea how the Herc will be salvaged?
Just asked my Bro this, as he has had some experience of recovering derailed trains. Miles of TrackWay to start with (will be needed anyway to truck away the contaminated soil), then cranes to sling lift the wings off after they have been de-fuelled.
 
Old 6th Oct 2020, 12:53
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And advantage of using Mayday as a preface in one's R/T when declaring an emergency:
Even if you are already in contact with a controller, when you are communicating on a cluttered / very busy freq that has lots of radio traffic, you'll usually get most participants to STFU for a bit so that whomever called Mayday can get their message out.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 13:23
  #178 (permalink)  
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May I suggest all the posts concerning emergency RT procedures be moved to a separate thread to leave this one for the specific accident referenced?
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 13:30
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Lonewolf 50:-
And advantage of using Mayday as a preface in one's R/T when declaring an emergency:
Even if you are already in contact with a controller, when you are communicating on a cluttered / very busy freq that has lots of radio traffic, you'll usually get most participants to STFU for a bit so that whomever called Mayday can get their message out.
Indeed Lonewolf, and by being allocated a Mayday c/s every subsequent transmission by you or to you again repeats that message to those same participants!

The important point I would make is that by having two emergency alerts (MAYDAY, or "I am declaring an emergency") in the US could then lead to confusion outside US airspace where US military crews will be dealing with non-US ATC (even if supplying a radar service) who may not immediately respond to "I am declaring an emergency" as a MAYDAY alert, with vital time being lost before appropriate assistance is given.

Stick to the internationally agreed script no matter where you are and with whom you are dealing and precious time will thus not be lost.

Last edited by Chugalug2; 6th Oct 2020 at 13:44.
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Old 6th Oct 2020, 18:44
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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The ATC sounded more nervous than the pilots. The wind direction/speed was the most useful information. ATC should assume, that with two engines gone and working on an engine fire checklist, the crew has its hands/brain full and communicate comes third. So provide useful information and do the emergency stuff like informing the equipment on the nearest airports in the background.
My assumption is, that some single handed piloting would be a good help for ATC to get the other side perspective.
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