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USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130

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USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130

Old 1st Oct 2020, 16:29
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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From this close up it certainly looks like the F-35B had an overtake and may have gone between the #3 and #4 engines - look at the damaged underwing tank hanging off that appears to have been sliced !

RAFEngO74to09 is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2020, 16:47
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Let the PPRuNe BoI commence!

Can a Herc fly on one Engine?
Yes, just not very far!
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 17:01
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Smile

Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
I have noticed a reticence in N America to use either word. I never worked out why.

BV
Because in the US, the word EMERGENCY means the same thing. Guess that is hard for you other English speaking folks to understand. We are taught from childhood to use the word EMERGENCY, simple as that.
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 17:04
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Sycamore-from my short time in AAR I remember that ATP56 (or whatever it is called these days) allows boom receivers to join direct astern (although not from 70 miles!) It also strongly advises against such a procedure for probe and drogue. If the USMC don't follow said document, now might be a good time to start!
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 17:14
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Also imagine the Marines will need to "buy the farm". Bet the (strawberry?) farmer gets a nice check to cover the crop loss associated with the incident, investigation and eventual recovery. Wonder how JP-5 tastes on strawberries.....
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 17:43
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09 View Post
From this close up it certainly looks like the F-35B had an overtake and may have gone between the #3 and #4 engines - look at the damaged underwing tank hanging off that appears to have been sliced !
It is impossible to say that, even from the photo. The underwing could have been hit by hose whiplash, prop blade or associated shrapnel, internal mechanical failure or indeed by an impact from the receiver aircraft. Same goes for the prop damage - when you start to shed a prop then anything around it is fair game. The metal-bladed Herc demonstrated a number of times the ease in which a shed blade from one side could take out an engine on the opposite side of the airframe. Prop blades don't find fuselage structure as an impediment to their energetic travels.
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Old 1st Oct 2020, 17:53
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Joe Smith View Post
Because in the US, the word EMERGENCY means the same thing. Guess that is hard for you other English speaking folks to understand. We are taught from childhood to use the word EMERGENCY, simple as that.
I think us English speaking folk understand completely. Thankfully young children do not get to fly aircraft or pick their own RT procedures:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...section_3.html
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...section_1.html
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publ...section_3.html
Distress and Urgency Communications
  1. A pilot who encounters a distress or urgency condition can obtain assistance simply by contacting the air traffic facility or other agency in whose area of responsibility the aircraft is operating, stating the nature of the difficulty, pilot's intentions and assistance desired. Distress and urgency communications procedures are prescribed by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), however, and have decided advantages over the informal procedure described above.
  2. Distress and urgency communications procedures discussed in the following paragraphs relate to the use of air ground voice communications.
  3. The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN-PAN should be used in the same manner for an urgency condition.
  4. Distress communications have absolute priority over all other communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency in use. Urgency communications have priority over all other communications except distress, and the word PAN-PAN warns other stations not to interfere with urgency transmissions.


    Just This Once... is offline  
    Old 1st Oct 2020, 18:05
      #68 (permalink)  
     
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    Joe Smith

    What a great post. Smug and wrong all at the same time. Bravo.

    BV
    Bob Viking is offline  
    Old 1st Oct 2020, 18:13
      #69 (permalink)  
     
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    H-Q,and Vasco, it all depended on the relative weights and heights of both tanker and receiver,not so much on stallspeed for `tobobogggganning`,or if there was weather ahead on the route,or `lo-speed/high speed` drogues...
    We could t/o at 188k ,op .necessity,but it was a painful climb`,darn Sarf,limited by Vno3 and internal fuel transfer/usage.Only used it once for tanking from `IceStation Kilo` to refuel a `brown weather balloon`somewhere N of ` a North place`....Not so much of a problem for fast jets....
    To this incident,intrigues me how you get a F-35 under/through the props/tanks without hitting the tailplane,or did it go over the wing ,hit the props,and they took out the stbd tank,but the stbd refuelling pod appears undamaged......maybe an ex-Blue Angel...?
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    Old 1st Oct 2020, 18:18
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    The airplane is about 1000 meters from the end of runway 35 at Thermal airport.
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    Old 1st Oct 2020, 18:33
      #71 (permalink)  
     
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    Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
    Besides the MAYDAY/PAN thing, another difference I have noted between the US and other nations is the stage at which tanker crews issue the clearance astern. The old and bold AAR mafia on here will be gratified to know that European tanker crews are still uniformly rigorous in waiting for joiners to be stabilised in the echelon position before issuing clearance astern. US tanker crews, not so much... my personal record (set within the last couple of years) is being cleared astern a KC-135 on first radio contact at 70 miles, with the crew seeming surprised when I asked whether I could join through echelon instead. Time and the investigation will tell whether the custom may have contributed in this case (noting the greater risk of misjudging closure on the slow KC-130) but regardless, itís a cheese-hole that should be closed.
    Why would this be an issue? Like any other rejoin to any position, astern or to the wing, you always put your flight path marker below, beside or behind to aircraft you are joining, until very close and close to co-speed. If you hit it while on your way to the astern position, you would probably also hit it if cleared to the inside wing during a turning rejoin....
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    Old 1st Oct 2020, 19:12
      #72 (permalink)  
     
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    Distress Calls

    In the 70s, as an ATCO at Eastern Radar, I was tasked with giving lectures to new USAF crews in the UK at LKH, BTW and UPH. I thing I still have the slides! Part of the emphasis was on using the proper terms (MAYDAY or PAN), explaining the UK D&D organisation and reassuring them there was no fee. Interesting to see that 50 years later US Mil continues to plough its own furrow (literally), regardless.

    Perhaps my best/worst case was in ‘68, with a TF-100 pilot who had ejected ... and while floating down into the North Sea east of Strubby used his PLB to transmit on 243.0 and say “This is Wiggins, anybody there?”. He was triangulated and recovered by SAR from Coltishall ... sadly his colleague was never found.
    MPN11 is offline  
    Old 1st Oct 2020, 19:31
      #73 (permalink)  
     
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    Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
    Besides the MAYDAY/PAN thing, another difference I have noted between the US and other nations is the stage at which tanker crews issue the clearance astern. The old and bold AAR mafia on here will be gratified to know that European tanker crews are still uniformly rigorous in waiting for joiners to be stabilised in the echelon position before issuing clearance astern. US tanker crews, not so much... my personal record (set within the last couple of years) is being cleared astern a KC-135 on first radio contact at 70 miles, with the crew seeming surprised when I asked whether I could join through echelon instead. Time and the investigation will tell whether the custom may have contributed in this case (noting the greater risk of misjudging closure on the slow KC-130) but regardless, it’s a cheese-hole that should be closed.
    The C130 is a tactical tanker in the Marine Corp. As such the tanking is done under quite different conditions than strategic tanking. As a example tanking is often done as low as 500 feet AGL and often EMCON so no radio use is allowed.
    It may also turn out that this accident is not pilot error. A bad basket or ruptured hose could sends hundreds of lbs of fuel down the intake. I have no idea how a F35 engine would react to that but it has created serious issues in other aircraft types. The probe on the F35 is in a bad location relative to the intake.
    Sailvi767 is offline  
    Old 1st Oct 2020, 21:08
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    Bob Viking - ROFL
    crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
    Old 1st Oct 2020, 21:24
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    I agree Bob V, funny and spot on.
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    Old 1st Oct 2020, 21:32
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    Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Bob Viking - ROFL
    typical Bob V humour - brilliant!
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    Old 2nd Oct 2020, 04:36
      #77 (permalink)  
     
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    Ah thankyou.

    Iím here all week.

    BV
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    Old 2nd Oct 2020, 06:33
      #78 (permalink)  
     
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    Don't leave the room yet then Bob!
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    Old 2nd Oct 2020, 06:38
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    So, the argument here is if it's better to declare an emergency by saying:
    a) Mayday!
    or
    b) Emergency!

    Seriously?
    tdracer is offline  
    Old 2nd Oct 2020, 07:06
      #80 (permalink)  
     
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    Seriously?
    Afraid so TD, there are emergencies, and then there are emergencies, to differentiate there are two distinct words to inform the world of your state, MAYDAY and PAN. The first is self evident, PAN calls take priority over every other calls on the radio except MAYDAY calls and should be used when someone is not in grave an imminent danger and does not require immediate assistance, but has an urgent situation. The urgent situation may be the result of degradation of aircraft systems , you spot a boat, vehicle or aircraft needing urgent assistance, you get lost or need navigation assistance, when you need to break rules to stay safe etc etc. In the civil world ICAO doesn't recognise the word "Emergency", cases of pilots using "Emergency" or other phrases other than "pan-pan" and "mayday" have caused confusion and errors in aircraft handling by ATC.

    https://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/aic/AIC21-12.pdf
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