Chinook Power Line Strike Wales
I too would like to see an end to the cancelling culture on this forum. It's supposed to be for Professional Aviators (and all the others mentioned in the title). The post that tuc refers to in #105 from Distant Voice is this one (#17) :-
If fingers need to be pointed and tongues wagged wouldn't it be more productive (and professional) to consider DV's post and its Flight Safety implications? Remind me, what is the latest planned Chinook OSD?
A 2013 paper covering the MoD Helicopter Safety Enhancement Programme stated,
There is currently no wire cutter kit developed for the Chinook and there are no known plans to develop one. The cost and timescale associated with introducing this capability suggest that an alternative means of protecting the aircraft against wire strike may be a better option. Assessment of a tablet based moving map capability is underway, which would have details of known wires and obstacles overlaid. The key to this type of system is considered to be an effective means of alerting the aircrew to the presence of wires without them having to spend prolonged periods “eyes-in”.
I hope the ODH found suitable mitigation to cover the wire strike risk when he signed off on the ALARP safety statement. DV
There is currently no wire cutter kit developed for the Chinook and there are no known plans to develop one. The cost and timescale associated with introducing this capability suggest that an alternative means of protecting the aircraft against wire strike may be a better option. Assessment of a tablet based moving map capability is underway, which would have details of known wires and obstacles overlaid. The key to this type of system is considered to be an effective means of alerting the aircrew to the presence of wires without them having to spend prolonged periods “eyes-in”.
I hope the ODH found suitable mitigation to cover the wire strike risk when he signed off on the ALARP safety statement. DV
Chugalug2 - I mentioned the tablet and its shortcomings earlier in the thread as I am pretty sure it is the same one foist upon the SAR Force.
We couldn't have a proper moving map because the platform was getting close to OSD and UKSAR takeover but no-one would pay the costs or do the paperwork to allow a proper integration of the tablet with the existing aircraft systems. So it ended up as a carry on device with no audio that had to be worn on a kneepad forcing more heads-in - great for avoiding wires!
How many times have we seen MOD use OSD for a reason not to add equipment to platforms and then extend the OSD again - not really in the spirit of ALARP is it?
We couldn't have a proper moving map because the platform was getting close to OSD and UKSAR takeover but no-one would pay the costs or do the paperwork to allow a proper integration of the tablet with the existing aircraft systems. So it ended up as a carry on device with no audio that had to be worn on a kneepad forcing more heads-in - great for avoiding wires!
How many times have we seen MOD use OSD for a reason not to add equipment to platforms and then extend the OSD again - not really in the spirit of ALARP is it?
This could easily have been yet another tragic fatal accident thread. The Hercules was not fit for purpose as a tactical transport aircraft because the default ESP fitted into all USAF C-130s was not fitted into RAF ones, yet both fleets were expected to carry out low level tactical operations and hence be liable to ground fire. With or without tablets the Chinook is at a risk exceeding ALARP by having to routinely operate at low level avoiding numerous and assorted high tension cables.
Given their vulnerability to wire strikes, helicopters need incorporated reliable warning systems in order to avoid them. Such technology exists and should be fitted. If the MOD is unable or unwilling to do so then low level training in the wire infested UK is not acceptable and should be carried out in a more wire benign environment. Either way costs money. What isn't acceptable is it costing yet more lives in avoidable fatal accidents.
Given their vulnerability to wire strikes, helicopters need incorporated reliable warning systems in order to avoid them. Such technology exists and should be fitted. If the MOD is unable or unwilling to do so then low level training in the wire infested UK is not acceptable and should be carried out in a more wire benign environment. Either way costs money. What isn't acceptable is it costing yet more lives in avoidable fatal accidents.
I am irritated that due the usual parsimony and short sightedness HMG is not protecting my frequent overhead visitors (and my power supply (n.b. this last is an attempt at humour)). Oddly though I haven't heard any wokka-wokkaring for some days.
Apologies if this is mentioned above but apparently the Canuck Chinook Fs have wire stike protection fitted, so its not unknown on H-47s. See page 14 of this: A 2010 Industry Briefing given by the Canadian Director Air Requirements
The cancelled HH-47 CSAR-X had WSPS (Wire Strike Protection System) included in its requirements.
Given the successful history of WSPS on the US Army's light to medium aircraft it should beggar belief that it hasn't been rolled out generally across military RW fleets with low level over land as part of their operating profile, Unfortunately history teaches us there will have to be multiple fatalities before anything is done.
This 2008 study makes interesting reading.
FAA - SAFETY STUDY OF WIRE STRIKE DEVICES INSTALLED ON CIVIL AND MILITARY HELICOPTERS
Apologies if this is mentioned above but apparently the Canuck Chinook Fs have wire stike protection fitted, so its not unknown on H-47s. See page 14 of this: A 2010 Industry Briefing given by the Canadian Director Air Requirements
The cancelled HH-47 CSAR-X had WSPS (Wire Strike Protection System) included in its requirements.
Given the successful history of WSPS on the US Army's light to medium aircraft it should beggar belief that it hasn't been rolled out generally across military RW fleets with low level over land as part of their operating profile, Unfortunately history teaches us there will have to be multiple fatalities before anything is done.
This 2008 study makes interesting reading.
FAA - SAFETY STUDY OF WIRE STRIKE DEVICES INSTALLED ON CIVIL AND MILITARY HELICOPTERS
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Well the canopy structure has been stress tested up to whatever the breaking strain of the cables were.
apparently the Canuck Chinook Fs have wire stike protection fitted, so its not unknown on H-47s.
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You will find this an interesting read especially the systems to warn you now. One lights up the pylons as you approach then transmits a warning on all channels!
http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar0825.pdf
http://www.tc.faa.gov/its/worldpac/techrpt/ar0825.pdf
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Surprised they haven’t even got protection for the power levers, anyone remember the Puma strike where the wire shoved the fuel shut off levers back?
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MG :-
The MOD hasn't the inclination to provide for the duty of care that the Military Covenant, not to mention the law, calls for. Military Air Safety in the UK is in the parlous state that it is because of the MOD's disinclination to do anything about reforming Military Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation. Both are held in check by the MOD and have been since the late 80s. Thank goodness that this thread wasn't about yet another avoidable fatal military air accident. It certainly had the makings of it and like all the others; Sea Kings, Mull, Nimrod, Hercules, Tornado, etc, predictable and predicted.
If this nation needs Air Power then it must pay for it or do without. The peacetime cost of not doing so will pale into insignificance when set against an enemy fielding Air Power itself. It will be the Battle of France once more, without the benefit of five further years to make up for not being fit for purpose or airworthy. Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation must be reformed and made independent of each other and of the MOD (the MOD itself must be reformed but who will ever manage that?).
MOD haven’t got the time nor the inclination to read about someone’s ongoing hobby horse ad nauseum.
If this nation needs Air Power then it must pay for it or do without. The peacetime cost of not doing so will pale into insignificance when set against an enemy fielding Air Power itself. It will be the Battle of France once more, without the benefit of five further years to make up for not being fit for purpose or airworthy. Air Regulation and Air Accident Investigation must be reformed and made independent of each other and of the MOD (the MOD itself must be reformed but who will ever manage that?).
MG, "my bad" teaches me to check for a confirming source. Made the assumption on the naive basis this was correct as it was after the contract was signed.
Anyone out there who can tell us why it was dropped? Given all the other Candian specific mods, many driven by the need to operate over the wide spaces of Canada far from base support, seems a bit strange to me.
Maybe it was to have been developed for the HH-47, which was cancelled around the same time. Or maybe the proximity to the radar and FLIR on the CH-147F made it too f@*&ing difficult
.
Source: Vertical
Anyone out there who can tell us why it was dropped? Given all the other Candian specific mods, many driven by the need to operate over the wide spaces of Canada far from base support, seems a bit strange to me.Maybe it was to have been developed for the HH-47, which was cancelled around the same time. Or maybe the proximity to the radar and FLIR on the CH-147F made it too f@*&ing difficult
.Source: Vertical
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At this point of time ( unless anyone knows what has happened with the wire strike ? )
Well We do not know .
I am more of a lurker on here , but Chugalug always gets a hard time over safety issues , Why ?
I can understand in wartime risks are taken and always have been , there will always be risks in anything We do and more so in aviation , it’s a case of reducing the risks in training and peacetime , although not an easy task .
But as always the MOD want to save money from their budget and there is many instances where they have saved the money , lives have been lost numerous times , for the want of updating systems or new technology.
Stay safe .
kind regards to all .
Paul
Well We do not know .
I am more of a lurker on here , but Chugalug always gets a hard time over safety issues , Why ?
I can understand in wartime risks are taken and always have been , there will always be risks in anything We do and more so in aviation , it’s a case of reducing the risks in training and peacetime , although not an easy task .
But as always the MOD want to save money from their budget and there is many instances where they have saved the money , lives have been lost numerous times , for the want of updating systems or new technology.
Stay safe .
kind regards to all .
Paul
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It amazes me that with the hazards of wire strikes known, new helicopters coming to the market do not have a Wire protection facility built in. You think the various authorities would make them mandatory.
That’s like buying a car without airbags and one does wonder if the manufacturer could be liable for deaths that could have been saved by such devices.
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That’s like buying a car without airbags and one does wonder if the manufacturer could be liable for deaths that could have been saved by such devices.
..
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Gents & Crab, the aircraft was flown back last night. I’ve just looked at it in the hangar the damage is superficial now the windscreens have been replaced. The OSI being conducted at Stn level will discover what lessons there are to learn but at this time it appears to be a gap that had developed in the move from paper to electronic mapping. But let’s wait shall we...
As for what I was doing at Chivenor we planned and authorised a period of GH during a gap in a longer sortie. We practised the exercises that we fly by night during the Combat Ready Captain workup, guess what Crab the aircraft’s capabilities have moved on in the decades since you were a SH Pilot. I’ve seen the photos Josh took and can understand how they’d look exciting to a child son of a SAR pilot. The inference to Catterick is interesting, that’s the VERY reason we train our ‘youngsters’ to fly these manoeuvres; so they, when tempted, know how to do them safely and therefore avoid the tragic outcome seen there. As for the personal implication (I’m not surprised), I’ve actually grown up a bit in the more than 25 years since we last flew together! You should try it.
As for what I was doing at Chivenor we planned and authorised a period of GH during a gap in a longer sortie. We practised the exercises that we fly by night during the Combat Ready Captain workup, guess what Crab the aircraft’s capabilities have moved on in the decades since you were a SH Pilot. I’ve seen the photos Josh took and can understand how they’d look exciting to a child son of a SAR pilot. The inference to Catterick is interesting, that’s the VERY reason we train our ‘youngsters’ to fly these manoeuvres; so they, when tempted, know how to do them safely and therefore avoid the tragic outcome seen there. As for the personal implication (I’m not surprised), I’ve actually grown up a bit in the more than 25 years since we last flew together! You should try it.
As Master of None says:
Forces News: Chinook Flies From Welsh Field After Forced Landing (Includes video)
Forces News: Chinook Flies From Welsh Field After Forced Landing (Includes video)
A Chinook helicopter has flown away from a field in Wales after being forced to land there last week...