80 years ago today...!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Having just watched the programme about Hazel Hill, I have to agree with VictorGolf. A very well-presented programme, It was technical and factual enough to be of interest to us aficionados, while being simple and entertaining enough for Joe Public to understand. Full marks. Full marks also to Hazel, one of the unknowns that contributed to the BoB. You learn something every day.
I know all the credit goes to the Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons and the very brave pilots but we would not have won the air battle without Radar, that was the game changer that allowed assist to be scrambled in a timely fashion and in the correct direction. Proud to have served and flown for 31 years.
If the Germans hadn't switched from bombing the airfields to bombing London then radar wasn't going to win the BoB. Radar was part of an air defense system that Dowding had developed over time and that kept the Luftwaffe at bay for a time but it was the inevitable stupidity of Goering that gave the RAF the respite from constant attacks on the airfields.
I know all the credit goes to the Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons and the very brave pilots ...
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If the Germans hadn't switched from bombing the airfields to bombing London then radar wasn't going to win the BoB. Radar was part of an air defense system that Dowding had developed over time and that kept the Luftwaffe at bay for a time but it was the inevitable stupidity of Goering that gave the RAF the respite from constant attacks on the airfields.
Again, there early F-0's were not liked by the Luftwaffe pilots because they again only had the 1 x MG/FF through the spinner and the 2 x MG's in the nose. Again, later F-2's onwards corrected this with the excellent MG151/15 15mm cannon and later MG151/20 cannons.
'The Schoolgirl who Helped Win a War' will be broadcast on the BBC News Channel at 13.30, 17.30 and 20.30 on Saturday and 10.30 and 16.30 on Sunday. It will also be available on BBC iPlayer.
Canos to the left Canons to the right but not in the BoB for the RAF.
20mm or .303
When i do my BoB talks (down west) i show a comparison image of a 20mm and a .303. In some cases i have a sample to pass around.
I then explain that when a canon shell hits it actually explodes and creates a huge amount of damage even with only one shell. If the impact area is a control surface then that is serious enough,but the with a monocoque structure (Spitfire fuelarge) it can be enough to weaken the structure to the point of failure. The Hurricane was able to absorb this type of impact better because the covering (fabric) was not the basic 'structure' and the fuse was built like the the Forth bridge (it was more prone to fire though). The original spec for our monoplane merlin fighters was for 4 rifle calibre guns,but that was up speced before production and meant the spitfire had to have the two exta ones well outboard. The Hurricane was able to fit four a side in a group and close together which gave a bit more clout. I believe the Spitfire had issues with heating the outer brownings (which they resolved) but as mentioned it was a problem when they tried a four canon fit.
The germans were no mugs when it came to producing a fighting machine, and the 109 was certainly a capable contender despite certain weak points, plus they considered the injection DB engine to have a distinct tactical advange when negative g manouevres were made. They also had the advantage of previous combat use in Spain which meant they were not all learning on the job as most of our guys were. An attacking force has many advantages as they actually decide where and when in advance and the defenders have to be on the alert all the time. Although we had the best air defence system at the time it could not preempt the entire situation and therefore our guys were frequently caught on the climb which caused many of the casualties. Considering Dowding and Park had to use a system designed to intercept bombers from Germany it is quite incredible that they adapted the resources they had to deal with an enemy only minutes away.
After Churchill had convinced the cainet that we should fight on we had the most capable people in the front line to see it through.
I then explain that when a canon shell hits it actually explodes and creates a huge amount of damage even with only one shell. If the impact area is a control surface then that is serious enough,but the with a monocoque structure (Spitfire fuelarge) it can be enough to weaken the structure to the point of failure. The Hurricane was able to absorb this type of impact better because the covering (fabric) was not the basic 'structure' and the fuse was built like the the Forth bridge (it was more prone to fire though). The original spec for our monoplane merlin fighters was for 4 rifle calibre guns,but that was up speced before production and meant the spitfire had to have the two exta ones well outboard. The Hurricane was able to fit four a side in a group and close together which gave a bit more clout. I believe the Spitfire had issues with heating the outer brownings (which they resolved) but as mentioned it was a problem when they tried a four canon fit.
The germans were no mugs when it came to producing a fighting machine, and the 109 was certainly a capable contender despite certain weak points, plus they considered the injection DB engine to have a distinct tactical advange when negative g manouevres were made. They also had the advantage of previous combat use in Spain which meant they were not all learning on the job as most of our guys were. An attacking force has many advantages as they actually decide where and when in advance and the defenders have to be on the alert all the time. Although we had the best air defence system at the time it could not preempt the entire situation and therefore our guys were frequently caught on the climb which caused many of the casualties. Considering Dowding and Park had to use a system designed to intercept bombers from Germany it is quite incredible that they adapted the resources they had to deal with an enemy only minutes away.
After Churchill had convinced the cainet that we should fight on we had the most capable people in the front line to see it through.
Just watched it on iPlayer :-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kzx7
As already stated, an excellent programme with enough detail to realise just how critical it was that the Spitfire and Hurricane specs be upped from 4 to 8 guns before production started. How important to this was a 13 year old schoolgirl and her mum's kitchen table rather depends on whether you are a proud descendant or simply a woke BBC presenter forever directing the conversation around to how vital was Hazel Hill's contribution to the BoB's outcome. One of her son's summarised it best by saying that the war was won by the efforts of many (millions) like her. Unknown, uncelebrated, largely unremarkable. We owe them all our present freedoms, which we in turn must also defend.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kzx7
As already stated, an excellent programme with enough detail to realise just how critical it was that the Spitfire and Hurricane specs be upped from 4 to 8 guns before production started. How important to this was a 13 year old schoolgirl and her mum's kitchen table rather depends on whether you are a proud descendant or simply a woke BBC presenter forever directing the conversation around to how vital was Hazel Hill's contribution to the BoB's outcome. One of her son's summarised it best by saying that the war was won by the efforts of many (millions) like her. Unknown, uncelebrated, largely unremarkable. We owe them all our present freedoms, which we in turn must also defend.
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I have understood for many years that the person responsible for persuading the RAF to move to an 8 gun fighter armament was Air Marshal Sir Ralph Sorley, a squadron leader in 1934. The Wikipedia article on Sorley mentions that Captain Hill helped with the calculations. It's nice that a 13 year old girl was involved and is now recognized, but I reckon that the Sorley would have gotten *someone* to do the calculations regardless. I don't much like journalists bending a story to make it more saleable.
but I reckon that the Sorley would have gotten *someone* to do the calculations regardless. I don't much like journalists bending a story to make it more saleable.
Actual gun damage tests
I have understood for many years that the person responsible for persuading the RAF to move to an 8 gun fighter armament was Air Marshal Sir Ralph Sorley, a squadron leader in 1934. The Wikipedia article on Sorley mentions that Captain Hill helped with the calculations. It's nice that a 13 year old girl was involved and is now recognized, but I reckon that the Sorley would have gotten *someone* to do the calculations regardless. I don't much like journalists bending a story to make it more saleable.
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There must be many here who have family that served during the BoB and hopefully have a pic squirrelled away in a dusty album somewhere. Let’s get them out and on display if you’re happy to. I’ll start with my grandfather, not aircrew but RAFVR in the Admin/Special Duties Branch, serving as the Intelligence Officer on 303 Sqn at RAF Northolt and Leconfield 1940. I’m sure you’ll recognise the others.....
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Particularly appropriate that some 80 years on, a Spitfire is still able to raise morale of the country....!
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Sorley was certainly involved in conducting firing tests on old airframes to assess actual damage 4 v 8 guns. This must have been quite convincing because both Hawkers and Supermarine had to adapt the wing design and gun heating system to suit and only 8 gun versions went into production. Hawkers had little problem with the thick Hurricane wing and ended up with a concentrated group of 4, but Supermarine had far more engineering to do with their 'racer', not only with the fit, but also heating. I suspect the practical trials were the game changer, and we did not have an 'in house' canon at the time. I suspect the Mig 15 large canon fit was more to do with it being able to clobber B29's rather than dog fight with American fighters.
Incidentally had the Whirlwind not had huge problems with the Peregrine engines and the cannon these aircraft could have made a huge difference in the BoB as a bomber destroyer. But then wars are made up of lots of maybes, etc.
Also later in the war it was established that the most effective 20mm round was not HE but Semi Armour Piercing Incendiary (SAPI). As well as its effect on aircraft SAPI was capable of penetrating the roof armour of the Panzer Mk 4 tanks and made a terrible mess of steam engines.
Last edited by DODGYOLDFART; 16th Aug 2020 at 09:33.
All hands to the pumps
There is no doubt that the ability to see the raids building was a complete game changer for us even though we were short of resources to deal with them.
The fact that the Germans did not change tactics to combat this shows just how well our Radar 'capability' was a surprise to them. For the first time the Germans were taking looses that were not expected, and indeed this must have been a morale shock after their relatively easy run through France and before. But in the end the final decisions were with the main game players and how they deployed their assets.
We had two well trained former artillery commanders who knew about battle tactics and then later transferred to the RFC. Thus they had the distinct advantage of experience of the bigger picture and were able to adapt this to the defence requirement of the day with different equipment.
The German counterpart was used to an easy European victory with no experience of the larger battle plan. Dowding and Park used all the available resources that were in being and had to adapt a system that was faced with far less warning than originally designed. They were able to adapt the classic artillery tactics but in a unique mobile way and never lost sight of the picture. Considering the vast aerial armada's they had to contend with they used what limited forces they had to good effect and harassed these formations to the point they lost faith in what their own commander was telling them. To a degree it was a huge bluff but then that's what wars come down to sometimes (making less mistakes than the enemy)
With no sight of destroying the RAF the change to another Blitz campaign was not going to achieve what was needed 'Total Air Supremacy'. Game lost and the unsinkable aircraft carrier survived to come back later and bite them hard. Technology is no use without the commanders ability to utilise it to best effect. We had both.
The fact that the Germans did not change tactics to combat this shows just how well our Radar 'capability' was a surprise to them. For the first time the Germans were taking looses that were not expected, and indeed this must have been a morale shock after their relatively easy run through France and before. But in the end the final decisions were with the main game players and how they deployed their assets.
We had two well trained former artillery commanders who knew about battle tactics and then later transferred to the RFC. Thus they had the distinct advantage of experience of the bigger picture and were able to adapt this to the defence requirement of the day with different equipment.
The German counterpart was used to an easy European victory with no experience of the larger battle plan. Dowding and Park used all the available resources that were in being and had to adapt a system that was faced with far less warning than originally designed. They were able to adapt the classic artillery tactics but in a unique mobile way and never lost sight of the picture. Considering the vast aerial armada's they had to contend with they used what limited forces they had to good effect and harassed these formations to the point they lost faith in what their own commander was telling them. To a degree it was a huge bluff but then that's what wars come down to sometimes (making less mistakes than the enemy)
With no sight of destroying the RAF the change to another Blitz campaign was not going to achieve what was needed 'Total Air Supremacy'. Game lost and the unsinkable aircraft carrier survived to come back later and bite them hard. Technology is no use without the commanders ability to utilise it to best effect. We had both.