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The White Tornado

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The White Tornado

Old 10th May 2020, 12:39
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The White Tornado

Interesting book by an ex Rolls-Royce engineer Jim Quinn. He describes the very interesting deliberations about the engine design for the MRCA/Tornado.
He was an advocate of a lower risk 2 spool configuration, the proposed Bristol Siddley BS143 compared with the eventual 3 spool RB199.

Lots of very interesting background.
R-R was of course very keen that the new, highly advanced military engine should follow the 3 spool configuration. But, a military engine with a relatively high bypass ratio and a massive reheat boost was and still is hugely different to a civil engine operation.

For those interested in gas turbines, well worth a read.
The author covers a wide range of topics other than just jet engines.
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Old 10th May 2020, 13:33
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Quite a mix of content, from the Amazon write up!

This is the inside story of the man who was known as the White Tornado in Rolls-Royce Bristol aero engines, for he outlines the work he and others carried out over twenty-one years during the early concept, development, and service stages of the Panavia Tornado engines. He went on to project manage Rolls-Royces first production single-crystal turbine blades and then worked on control systems for several years, describing these works as the story proceeds. A whistle-blower, he enjoyed Gilbert and Sullivan, hang gliding, and motorsport, and he eventually left RR to work with several charities, particularly Headway and Remap, where he describes his experience as an inventive carer of disabled people of all sorts. Many years were spent maintaining and renovating church turret Clocks, and some of this is reported here. As a humanist, he has experience of and interest in many things, and the book thus contains a variety of challenging thoughts, including the nature of biological evolution (extraterrestrials too), a proposal to reverse engineer formal methods software, a proposal for a suitable UK Constitution because nobody knows the hidden one, many other proposals for government, and thoughts about the European Union and nuclear weapons.
another describes it as...
Spoiler
 

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Old 10th May 2020, 13:47
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
Interesting book by an ex Rolls-Royce engineer Jim Quinn. He describes the very interesting deliberations about the engine design for the MRCA/Tornado.
He was an advocate of a lower risk 2 spool configuration, the proposed Bristol Siddley BS143 compared with the eventual 3 spool RB199.

Lots of very interesting background.
R-R was of course very keen that the new, highly advanced military engine should follow the 3 spool configuration. But, a military engine with a relatively high bypass ratio and a massive reheat boost was and still is hugely different to a civil engine operation.

For those interested in gas turbines, well worth a read.
The author covers a wide range of topics other than just jet engines.
god this sounds dry

im tempted to dig Low Level Hell out just to counterbalance having to read that write up...
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Old 10th May 2020, 14:08
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Originally Posted by WingsofRoffa View Post
god this sounds dry

im tempted to dig Low Level Hell out just to counterbalance having to read that write up...
May be this should be moved to Tech Log, you know for those of us interested in technical stuff.
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Old 10th May 2020, 14:25
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
May be this should be moved to Tech Log, you know for those of us interested in technical stuff.
​​​​​​
The book is primarily about the background to the design of one of the most significantant military engines of its age. Hence Military Aviation thread.
But of course the mods can choose to move it if required.
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Old 10th May 2020, 14:42
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I absolutely agree Buster, I was being facetious in responce to Wings... remark.
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Old 10th May 2020, 16:29
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It amazed me when I did a brief spell stripping down RB199 and Adours how seriously knackered they were when you got into the hot sections.
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Old 11th May 2020, 11:44
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except for the unreheated Adour in the Hawk , very reliable !
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Old 11th May 2020, 14:44
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Originally Posted by bvcu View Post
except for the unreheated Adour in the Hawk , very reliable !
As a single engine aircraft, it had to be.
Regarding the RB199 hot end, you have to remember the materials technology that was available at the time. And the operation which meant that the engines were often running at high power for most of the time.

Both the HP Turbine and IP Turbines were retrofitted with more modern single crystal blades and this increased the HPT Blade life from typically 200 hours to 1000 hours, which even today is pretty good.
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Old 11th May 2020, 18:09
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
It amazed me when I did a brief spell stripping down RB199 and Adours how seriously knackered they were when you got into the hot sections.
The stator stages on a gas turbine hot section always look completely knackered on strip down. The RB199 was no exception. The M07 HPNGV module would be full of cracks and burning but it wasn't rotating and could handle the damage. I remember visiting Ruston Gas Turbines in Lincoln in the early 80's. The made industrial gas turbines that would run continuously for 12 years without shutting down, and on poor quality fuel too. The turbine blades eroded to something resembling thick needles when they were finally stripped down.
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Old 11th May 2020, 18:40
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Originally Posted by Vendee View Post
The stator stages on a gas turbine hot section always look completely knackered on strip down. The RB199 was no exception. The M07 HPNGV module would be full of cracks and burning but it wasn't rotating and could handle the damage. I remember visiting Ruston Gas Turbines in Lincoln in the early 80's. The made industrial gas turbines that would run continuously for 12 years without shutting down, and on poor quality fuel too. The turbine blades eroded to something resembling thick needles when they were finally stripped down.
The HPNGV's as you say suffered from burning and cracking as they sat at the exit of the combustor and saw gas temperatures of over 1600k.

Because of the high spares cost, a wide gap braze repair that had been developed for civil engines was embodied on the RB199.
The problem was that the HPNGV's structurally support their inner components.
And widescale braze repair resulted in loss of structural support and eventually led to a catastrophic failure.

This was resolved by a modified HPNGV in a material that was more temperature tolerant.
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Old 11th May 2020, 20:31
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Both the HP Turbine and IP Turbines were retrofitted with more modern single crystal blades and this increased the HPT Blade life from typically 200 hours to 1000 hours, which even today is pretty good.
IIRC the early F2/F3 engines were being changed at about 70 hours.....
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Old 11th May 2020, 21:06
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Originally Posted by WingsofRoffa View Post
god this sounds dry

im tempted to dig Low Level Hell out just to counterbalance having to read that write up...
Sounds good. Before I order it Is it better or worse then the other Vietnam helicopter book? (Iíll probably order it anyway...) :-)
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Old 11th May 2020, 21:17
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
IIRC the early F2/F3 engines were being changed at about 70 hours.....
It was around about 170 hrs when I first worked on the RB199 in 1987. When I returned to Tornado in 2008, some were lasting over 1000 hrs.
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Old 11th May 2020, 21:43
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Originally Posted by 18greens View Post
Sounds good. Before I order it Is it better or worse then the other Vietnam helicopter book? (Iíll probably order it anyway...) :-)
itís the best Vietnam helo book Iíve read....and Iíve read pretty much all of them
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Old 12th May 2020, 12:56
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Ted Talbot's excellent book "Concorde, A Designer's Life" recounts how the design office for Concorde's intakes were continually badgered for design details of the intake control system to help with the design of the Tornado. Things eventually went quiet when the German part of Panavia then patented the design, before then attempting to sue Filton for infringing "their" design. Great book - well worth a read.

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Old 12th May 2020, 14:26
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Originally Posted by anson harris View Post
Ted Talbot's excellent book "Concorde, A Designer's Life" recounts how the design office for Concorde's intakes were continually badgered for design details of the intake control system to help with the design of the Tornado. Things eventually went quiet when the German part of Panavia then patented the design, before then attempting to sue Filton for infringing "their" design. Great book - well worth a read.
Weren't BAC who designed Concorde intakes involved in the Panavia consortium.
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Old 13th May 2020, 09:08
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Originally Posted by 18greens View Post
Sounds good. Before I order it Is it better or worse then the other Vietnam helicopter book? (I’ll probably order it anyway...) :-)

Dustoff by Mike Novosel is a nice book - highly recommended

Mike Novosel was a B29 pilot/AC near the end of WW2. He resigned his Air Force Reserve commission when the Air Force refused to recall him to duty in Vietnam, joining the Army as a Warrant Officer. He and his son were the only father/son medical evacuation pilots in Vietnam, together evacuating more than 8,000 wounded and, over the span of a few weeks, rescuing each other after their helicopters went down. When Mike Novosel retired on March 1, 1985, he was the last World War II aviator still on active duty.Highly decorated (inc MOH).

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Old 13th May 2020, 10:45
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Don't know much about aero engines, but I have mopped a few floors in my time


I suspect the Ajax ads were the origin of this bloke's nickname.

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Old 14th May 2020, 08:56
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
Weren't BAC who designed Concorde intakes involved in the Panavia consortium.
You'd have to ask the author. It's in print and he hasn't been sued, so I'm assuming it's accurate.
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