A Day In History
Thread Starter
I have. had four trips to Vietnam in total.
The first one was interesting at times, the second was really interesting and resulted in a dose of Lead Poisoning, the third was very pleasant, and the fourth was just amazing.
On the fourth we visited the very Northern part of the country including Dien Bien Phu and worked our way south to Saigon by means of Bus, Van, Car, Sleeper train, and airline flights....with a stop in Hanoi where we took in the sights that included the Hoa Lo Prison (aka Hanoi Hilton), the site of John McCains capture, Ho's Tomb where he is preserved an on display.
In Saigon we took in the museums, old Presidential Palace, and the old Rex Hotel....and some really nice restaurants and bars.
I stongly encourage Vietnam War Veterans to go on a two or three week hour tour of the country and get a set of memories they will know as Vietnam Redux.
My notion is the human mind draws from recent and/or pleasant memories before it brings up old and/or unpleasant memories.
It works that way for me.
The first one was interesting at times, the second was really interesting and resulted in a dose of Lead Poisoning, the third was very pleasant, and the fourth was just amazing.
On the fourth we visited the very Northern part of the country including Dien Bien Phu and worked our way south to Saigon by means of Bus, Van, Car, Sleeper train, and airline flights....with a stop in Hanoi where we took in the sights that included the Hoa Lo Prison (aka Hanoi Hilton), the site of John McCains capture, Ho's Tomb where he is preserved an on display.
In Saigon we took in the museums, old Presidential Palace, and the old Rex Hotel....and some really nice restaurants and bars.
I stongly encourage Vietnam War Veterans to go on a two or three week hour tour of the country and get a set of memories they will know as Vietnam Redux.
My notion is the human mind draws from recent and/or pleasant memories before it brings up old and/or unpleasant memories.
It works that way for me.
SAS - do you think the war was worth it? You seem very impressed by modern Vietnam
Thread Starter
Was the War worth it?
I struggled with that question for years....and still do to a a certain extent.
It depends upon how you frame the factors that surrounded it all....and they are extensive and complex....and sometimes hidden from public view for any number of reasons.
How you begin to frame your answer has to begin with at what point in history you wish to begin....and ends with your personal involvement in the actual fighting and the costs it inflicted upon you as a result.
After all these years and two trips there during the War and two afterwards....along with the passage of time and surfacing of more information about the War and what led up to it....I see it much differently than all those years ago.
I see it now as a Civil War, one of re-unification, that the United States could have avoided being directly involved.
That view begins during WWII....when the US OSS enlisted the assistance of the Vietnamese in fighting the Japanese and carries forward.
Also....FDR intended to see the end of European Colonialism but died in Office and was succeeded by Harry Truman who had different views.
Had we foster a better relationship with the Vietnamese....refused to back the French and not allowed ourselves to be drawn into the conflict....there surely would have been a much different outcome to all that.
It was the Cold War...where the Soviets and Americans used Proxies to fight one another....and there was a genuine basis to the worry that Southeast Asia would fall under the control of the Communists....USSR and Chinese.
We did demonstrate to the Communists that we would fight them as we did in Korea and again in Vietnam. Remember the British were also dealing with a Communist Insurgency in Malaya as well.
All that being said.....it was a tragedy that it even occurred....and a greater tragedy that politicians were allowed to dictate to the US Military re conducting the War on the ground.
Our very senior Military Leaders failed us, the Politicans failed us, and far too many people died as a result....Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Australians, New Zealanders, and Americans.
One third of my Army Flight School Class were killed in their first tour of combat in Vietnam....my unit suffered losses....and friends from growing up also were killed....and that marks the personal side of the War for me .
Combat forges a special bond between those who go through that experience and I am blessed to have been allowed to serve alongside some very good Soldiers.
We did on a daily basis what most people cannot even conceive of....and did so out of a sense of duty and commitment to one another.
We served our Nations honorably and paid a heavy price for doing so.
Was it worth it?
When I stand in front of the Vietnam Memorial and see all those names.....so many of them my friends.....I just don't know....I really don't.
I struggled with that question for years....and still do to a a certain extent.
It depends upon how you frame the factors that surrounded it all....and they are extensive and complex....and sometimes hidden from public view for any number of reasons.
How you begin to frame your answer has to begin with at what point in history you wish to begin....and ends with your personal involvement in the actual fighting and the costs it inflicted upon you as a result.
After all these years and two trips there during the War and two afterwards....along with the passage of time and surfacing of more information about the War and what led up to it....I see it much differently than all those years ago.
I see it now as a Civil War, one of re-unification, that the United States could have avoided being directly involved.
That view begins during WWII....when the US OSS enlisted the assistance of the Vietnamese in fighting the Japanese and carries forward.
Also....FDR intended to see the end of European Colonialism but died in Office and was succeeded by Harry Truman who had different views.
Had we foster a better relationship with the Vietnamese....refused to back the French and not allowed ourselves to be drawn into the conflict....there surely would have been a much different outcome to all that.
It was the Cold War...where the Soviets and Americans used Proxies to fight one another....and there was a genuine basis to the worry that Southeast Asia would fall under the control of the Communists....USSR and Chinese.
We did demonstrate to the Communists that we would fight them as we did in Korea and again in Vietnam. Remember the British were also dealing with a Communist Insurgency in Malaya as well.
All that being said.....it was a tragedy that it even occurred....and a greater tragedy that politicians were allowed to dictate to the US Military re conducting the War on the ground.
Our very senior Military Leaders failed us, the Politicans failed us, and far too many people died as a result....Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Australians, New Zealanders, and Americans.
One third of my Army Flight School Class were killed in their first tour of combat in Vietnam....my unit suffered losses....and friends from growing up also were killed....and that marks the personal side of the War for me .
Combat forges a special bond between those who go through that experience and I am blessed to have been allowed to serve alongside some very good Soldiers.
We did on a daily basis what most people cannot even conceive of....and did so out of a sense of duty and commitment to one another.
We served our Nations honorably and paid a heavy price for doing so.
Was it worth it?
When I stand in front of the Vietnam Memorial and see all those names.....so many of them my friends.....I just don't know....I really don't.
Salute!
Thank you so much, SAS
Many of us share a lot of your views.
Your last words strike home to this old warrior.
So very true, and I must remind the armchair warriors here to place themselves in our chairs at those times and in those situations. Try hard. Imagine two of the seven guys you trained with not coming back after 6 months. Imagine your class from the trade school having more POW's than all the other classes combined ( until late 1972 in Linebacker II).
and then SAS concludes:
My initial thot about "was it worth it?" is , hell no. It wasn't worth it.
And then I have to step back and consider that the fiasco was, and should be, a very harsh lesson about well-intended "nation-building" that we seemed to have forgotten since 1991 and Desert Storm.
The blitz then was run by a buncha Viet Nam vets that were determined not to get bogged down and not to re-structure a country and their people's idea of everyday life. Closure of Desert Storm was a clear goal, and made possible by lack of micro-management on part of the national command authorities. My connections then involved the overall commander of the air forces - Horner, and plenty on his staff who were contemporaries before I got out. For chrissakes, I flew with the F-117 folks when we were back in SLUF's and early Vipers. I got to see some of my Viper students wave at the cameras as they taxiied in or out.
I only went back twice, and last tour was just covering Saigon in late April 1975 and Mayaguez tragedy for brave Marines and USAF helicopter crews I trained with for CSAR and spec ops insertion. My closure was in December when I led the last flight of fighter-bombers outta the whole damned war. See my vitae on the profile link.
Many friends have gone back to gain closure, but I had mine. I still see one of my A-37 VNAF dudes at the local fish market. He escaped with his family after the fall and has gone on to have a successful life here. Some of my friends have gone back, and one even went to a village that he bombed during the SAR we conducted for Kansas 01B. I was Sandy 'x" for that one and had the backup Jolly when the first one got shot up and I had to bring the backup in and escort both of them outta the place. The survivor came out in March of 1973. Unlike some adversaries, the Vee ( most ethnic and military groups, not the political ones) will sit down with you and have a beer, and let the war behind. We can joke - "if I didn't miss your gun, you wouldn't be here", and that gunner would chuckle and reply, " just a foot more lead from my 57mm and neither would you!"
We can have a very private forum someplace to discuss our feelings and theories, but I shall stop after relating one incident on my second tour that may shed light on my private feelings. Draw your own conclusions.
Our wing deployed in October 1972 to "help". Flew outta Korat over many familiar venues in Laos and VietNam. I went back to Bien Hoa in early November 1972 to help with our turn around detachment. We couldn't remain overnight in South VietNam, but we could fly a mission, land/rearm and fly another on the way home to Korat. I was a senior captain by then and wanted to see my old haunts of 1968. U.S. forces had been there since 1961 or so, and over half a million of us were in-country in 1968 for my first tour. Morning of the election, 1972, I asked Mama-san who she wanted to be elected as the U.S. President. She said she wanted Nixon to continue, because then "we" wouldn't leave.
Gums sends...
Thank you so much, SAS
Many of us share a lot of your views.
Your last words strike home to this old warrior.
Combat forges a special bond between those who go through that experience and I am blessed to have been allowed to serve alongside some very good Soldiers.
We did on a daily basis what most people cannot even conceive of....and did so out of a sense of duty and commitment to one another.
We served our Nations honorably and paid a heavy price for doing so.
We did on a daily basis what most people cannot even conceive of....and did so out of a sense of duty and commitment to one another.
We served our Nations honorably and paid a heavy price for doing so.
and then SAS concludes:
Was it worth it?
When I stand in front of the Vietnam Memorial and see all those names.....so many of them my friends.....I just don't know....I really don't.
When I stand in front of the Vietnam Memorial and see all those names.....so many of them my friends.....I just don't know....I really don't.
And then I have to step back and consider that the fiasco was, and should be, a very harsh lesson about well-intended "nation-building" that we seemed to have forgotten since 1991 and Desert Storm.
The blitz then was run by a buncha Viet Nam vets that were determined not to get bogged down and not to re-structure a country and their people's idea of everyday life. Closure of Desert Storm was a clear goal, and made possible by lack of micro-management on part of the national command authorities. My connections then involved the overall commander of the air forces - Horner, and plenty on his staff who were contemporaries before I got out. For chrissakes, I flew with the F-117 folks when we were back in SLUF's and early Vipers. I got to see some of my Viper students wave at the cameras as they taxiied in or out.
I only went back twice, and last tour was just covering Saigon in late April 1975 and Mayaguez tragedy for brave Marines and USAF helicopter crews I trained with for CSAR and spec ops insertion. My closure was in December when I led the last flight of fighter-bombers outta the whole damned war. See my vitae on the profile link.
Many friends have gone back to gain closure, but I had mine. I still see one of my A-37 VNAF dudes at the local fish market. He escaped with his family after the fall and has gone on to have a successful life here. Some of my friends have gone back, and one even went to a village that he bombed during the SAR we conducted for Kansas 01B. I was Sandy 'x" for that one and had the backup Jolly when the first one got shot up and I had to bring the backup in and escort both of them outta the place. The survivor came out in March of 1973. Unlike some adversaries, the Vee ( most ethnic and military groups, not the political ones) will sit down with you and have a beer, and let the war behind. We can joke - "if I didn't miss your gun, you wouldn't be here", and that gunner would chuckle and reply, " just a foot more lead from my 57mm and neither would you!"
We can have a very private forum someplace to discuss our feelings and theories, but I shall stop after relating one incident on my second tour that may shed light on my private feelings. Draw your own conclusions.
Our wing deployed in October 1972 to "help". Flew outta Korat over many familiar venues in Laos and VietNam. I went back to Bien Hoa in early November 1972 to help with our turn around detachment. We couldn't remain overnight in South VietNam, but we could fly a mission, land/rearm and fly another on the way home to Korat. I was a senior captain by then and wanted to see my old haunts of 1968. U.S. forces had been there since 1961 or so, and over half a million of us were in-country in 1968 for my first tour. Morning of the election, 1972, I asked Mama-san who she wanted to be elected as the U.S. President. She said she wanted Nixon to continue, because then "we" wouldn't leave.
Gums sends...
Last edited by gums; 23rd Apr 2020 at 22:20. Reason: clarify opinions
Thank you SASLess. It means a lot to read the words of someone who was there.
Having also stood in front of the Vietnam Memorial and been moved by the sheer number of names on it, it is equally sobering to think that the number of Coronavirus deaths in the USA has passed the US Vietnam figure today. Not a comment on the war or US politics either, just awareness of the fact.
SASLess, one question with no hidden agenda. Do you think Vietnam now is the country the Vietnamese you were fighting against dreamt of?
Having also stood in front of the Vietnam Memorial and been moved by the sheer number of names on it, it is equally sobering to think that the number of Coronavirus deaths in the USA has passed the US Vietnam figure today. Not a comment on the war or US politics either, just awareness of the fact.
SASLess, one question with no hidden agenda. Do you think Vietnam now is the country the Vietnamese you were fighting against dreamt of?
Last edited by Mechta; 23rd Apr 2020 at 23:02.
Salute!
@ Mechta
I do not think SAS or I or many of us fought against the "people", the everyday Vietnamese people. From north or south.
We were supposedly fighting against a political movement and most of us had not read Fall's books or anything about the actual people ( Street Without Joy, Two Vietnams, Hell in a Very Small Place, etc.) He died on a patrol when I was there my first tour. SAS likely there at the time, too.
I, for one, suspected that the people would revert to their basic character quickly, once the shooting stopped. They are very happy-go-lucky people who are not afraid of hard work, and they "can take a joke". Sure enough, we see hotels, many small businesses, eateries, bicycle shops, a rebirth of the rice industry which had been the largest exporter in that area of the world until "the war", etc. I dunno about the rubber plantations, and they were kinda off-limits to us, as French interests were still involved - think of a big tire company.
As far as the corona vs "The Wall" numbers, we lost more Americans to normal flu three years ago than names on "the Wall". It's just that SAS and I and others personally knew and served with many on "the Wall".
Gums opines...
@ Mechta
I do not think SAS or I or many of us fought against the "people", the everyday Vietnamese people. From north or south.
We were supposedly fighting against a political movement and most of us had not read Fall's books or anything about the actual people ( Street Without Joy, Two Vietnams, Hell in a Very Small Place, etc.) He died on a patrol when I was there my first tour. SAS likely there at the time, too.
I, for one, suspected that the people would revert to their basic character quickly, once the shooting stopped. They are very happy-go-lucky people who are not afraid of hard work, and they "can take a joke". Sure enough, we see hotels, many small businesses, eateries, bicycle shops, a rebirth of the rice industry which had been the largest exporter in that area of the world until "the war", etc. I dunno about the rubber plantations, and they were kinda off-limits to us, as French interests were still involved - think of a big tire company.
As far as the corona vs "The Wall" numbers, we lost more Americans to normal flu three years ago than names on "the Wall". It's just that SAS and I and others personally knew and served with many on "the Wall".
Gums opines...
Gums, Thank you for your reply, I should have addressed the question to both of you in the first place. The reason I am curious is that I spoke to someone from Vietnam a couple of years ago, and the country she described was very different from what I had assumed a country based upon a Communist ideology would be like.
