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Election Defence Debate

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Election Defence Debate

Old 29th Nov 2019, 14:09
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Geordie_Expat View Post
BVRAAM: I'm fully aware of that but if you have been reading the recent posts you will see ref to global warming etc.
Climate change is becoming a defence issue as well. Currently (some) wars are fought over oil. The wars of the future will be over lithium and cobalt.
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Old 29th Nov 2019, 18:35
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
Meanwhile on Planet Earth....
You asked.

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Old 30th Nov 2019, 08:33
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Itís astonishing that some here are taken in by Labourís Christmas pantomime of being interested in defence. After a career spent pouring abuse and contempt for the armed forces and heaping praise on those who would murder them, suddenly Corbyn is the soldiers friend?? When he was accusing our armed forces in NI of atrocities and praising the ďbombs and bullets of the IRAĒ he at least did so with genuine conviction. Now heís just a two-faced low-life.

Last edited by ShotOne; 30th Nov 2019 at 09:45.
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Old 30th Nov 2019, 09:00
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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I think most people just believe that the other parties are no better - it wasn't Labour who brought in the 1956 Sandy's, were planning to auction off the carriers in 1981 cuts or the 2010 SDSR was it?
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 22:17
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
I think most people just believe that the other parties are no better - it wasn't Labour who brought in the 1956 Sandy's, were planning to auction off the carriers in 1981 cuts or the 2010 SDSR was it?
This argument is, on the face of it, compelling, but is flawed.

Although both sides blame each other, they are both to blame. VERY rarely do massive changes happen within a 4 yr cycle, most of the time when defence, economics and numerous other things happen over 10-25 yrs.

This means ALL sides are to blame in some way.

They are ALL as bad as each other.

They are all self-serving.

They all feather their own nests

They all keep (net) taxes high

They all remove liberties

They all waste money

They all blame the other shift

They all fundamentally make no real differences to the country

Just my opinion....
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 08:51
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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"They all keep (net) taxes high" - TBH taxes in the UK have fallen dramatically since 1979 - that's the problem - the spending on pensions, the NHS, schools stays high but the money isn't there so we see the gradual collapse of infrastructure and services
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 10:09
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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heights good,

You have spouted this nonsense before. It is a cheap list of cliched tired reductionism, last time you said "I cannot be proved wrong," now you say just your opinion...

Have you ever met an MP?

They do NOT all feather their own nests.

They are NOT all self serving.

They do NOT all keep (net) taxes high.

They do NOT all remove liberties.

And if they all fundamentally make no real difference to the country, what is your beef?

Whilst not being particularly enamoured of the current choice for PM, I have met and worked with a good number of MP's across the political spectrum. Almost without exception they came into politics NOT to feather their own nests but to make a difference, each according to their own particular political dogma. They could all make far more money elsewhere, they could all see far more of their families if they worked elsewhere, they could all do without the vitriol and abuse they suffer on social media and in the street if they worked elsewhere.

Your tired cliched view of politicians does you no favours, or have you swallowed a Daily Mail whole?

Last edited by pr00ne; 3rd Dec 2019 at 10:22.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 10:18
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"They all keep (net) taxes high" - TBH taxes in the UK have fallen dramatically since 1979 - that's the problem - the spending on pensions, the NHS, schools stays high but the money isn't there so we see the gradual collapse of infrastructure and services
Errrr, no. While the punitive rates of 80% plus on earnings above a certain level may have disappeared (and rightly so), the tax burden is about as high as it's ever been - and incidentally, the majority of income tax is supplied by something like 10% of the population.

When you talk about spending, spending (excluding defence) has generally risen above inflation. What it has not done is maintained ever increasing year on year real-term rises. So it's not that budgets are cut, it's that they don't rise in line with historical demand. The real issue is that demand for health and social care and pensions is essentially unconstrained - something than can never be met with realistic levels of taxation and also something that no polly will willingly admit, because it leads to a debate that the public in general won't like. ie If you want x, y, z services, you Joe Public (and not A.N Other aka "the rich") will have to pay for it. Or you constrain what is provided by the public purse - and that doesn't mean stop Johnny Foreigner from accessing those services, because that wouldn't dent the demand.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 12:07
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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I think N_a_B the percentage of Public Expenditure spent by the Govt is much the same but individual taxes have gone down .

https://www.ukpublicrevenue.co.uk/uk...e_tax_analysis shows income taxes are pretty much at post 1945 lows

But you are right about the demand pull on services - no Govt seems capable of facing down the pensioners, the teachers and the NHS
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 13:24
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
Climate change is becoming a defence issue as well. Currently (some) wars are fought over oil. The wars of the future will be over lithium and cobalt.
What about water?
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 14:18
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
heights good,

You have spouted this nonsense before. It is a cheap list of cliched tired reductionism, last time you said "I cannot be proved wrong," now you say just your opinion...

Have you ever met an MP?

They do NOT all feather their own nests.

They are NOT all self serving.

They do NOT all keep (net) taxes high.

They do NOT all remove liberties.

And if they all fundamentally make no real difference to the country, what is your beef?

Whilst not being particularly enamoured of the current choice for PM, I have met and worked with a good number of MP's across the political spectrum. Almost without exception they came into politics NOT to feather their own nests but to make a difference, each according to their own particular political dogma. They could all make far more money elsewhere, they could all see far more of their families if they worked elsewhere, they could all do without the vitriol and abuse they suffer on social media and in the street if they worked elsewhere.

Your tired cliched view of politicians does you no favours, or have you swallowed a Daily Mail whole?
this is the joy of life, we can have different opinions.

to answer your question, yes I have met several politicians and this is exactly why I have the opinions I have.

I have met 3 Prime Ministers, 3 Defence Secretary's, 2 Chancellors, 2 Armed Forces Minister and numerous others over the past almost 2 decades. My uncle is also an SNP councilor and has been for 40 yrs. Every single one was insincere, avoided answering questions or in some cases were on the verge of complete incompetence. In the case of my uncle he is too lazy to get a real job but is paid well for doing very little. He has also talked himself into numerous positions which come with many perks and bonuses. He has no degree, no experience of the real world and has never worked a real job in his life.

whilst I am in violent agreement that most get into politics for noble reasons, politics is not a game that allows nobility to flourish. Politics is a dark underworld with rules that require making deals with the devil if you want to succeed. It is very much a case of adapt or die.

As for hard working, this does not mean efficiency of output or indeed, integrity. Many people work hard including criminals. Talking of which, how many politicians have criminal records or should have? Remember all those honest, hard-working politicians who spent time completing their expenses claims? Or the 11% pay rise when public servants were on a pay freeze? Or allow the financial corruption to flourish which led to the 2008 crash? Starting a war with Iraq by making up evidence? Resurrecting claims of murder against servicemen after almost 50 yrs despite a £200m public enquiry exonerating them? Equipping the armed forces with sub-standard equipment as it is British? This list is in no way exhaustive.

I do not have any political affiliation or read any newspapers.

If you don't agree then that is okay.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 15:32
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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"He has also talked himself into numerous positions which come with many perks and bonuses. He has no degree, no experience of the real world and has never worked a real job in his life"

I can see why you are a bit bitter................
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 15:48
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"He has also talked himself into numerous positions which come with many perks and bonuses. He has no degree, no experience of the real world and has never worked a real job in his life"

I can see why you are a bit bitter................
To be fair I have seen him maybe half a dozen times in my life.

He has not shaped my opinion anywhere near as much as the bigger 'real' politicians who have frankly, astounded me with their lack of any discernible talent other than waffling, believing their own words and avoiding saying anything of substance.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 22:00
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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I object to politicians entering politics without ever having worked a real job.

They are the politicians that, when elected, eventually end up in government and make policy that is out of touch most of the electorate. They know this, so in order to balance it out, they throw in "gimmes," that they know is attractive to the naive, they also know the country couldn't afford them, but hey, £250 billion in investment in a single area sounds amazing, when you know the square root of **** all about how economies work.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 09:25
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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"I object to politicians entering politics without ever having worked a real job."

In the UK that used to be the case up to around 1985 - then the people who had jobs in Law or The City (Tories) or the Trade Unions or factories (Labour) were hounded out by people and the press complaining about "2 -jobs MP's", "Part timers taking our cash", "Unprofessional amateurs" etc etc and by the early 90's the route to government was with a Politics degree, time spent in a think tank, gophering for a Minister etc etc

So be careful what you wish for....................
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 10:57
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Good Post 31, heights

I would briefly add the telling of untruths, of which Nicola Sturgeon is expert.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 16:31
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jindabyne View Post
Good Post 31, heights

I would briefly add the telling of untruths, of which Nicola Sturgeon is expert.
Please don't get me started on the delusional SNP, they are so toxic and live in a complete fantasy land filled with tartan, Irn-bru, overflowing oil wells and Braveheart quotes.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 23:16
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"I object to politicians entering politics without ever having worked a real job."

In the UK that used to be the case up to around 1985 - then the people who had jobs in Law or The City (Tories) or the Trade Unions or factories (Labour) were hounded out by people and the press complaining about "2 -jobs MP's", "Part timers taking our cash", "Unprofessional amateurs" etc etc and by the early 90's the route to government was with a Politics degree, time spent in a think tank, gophering for a Minister etc etc

So be careful what you wish for....................
I just wish for politicians to be in touch.

We also need far more veterans in Parliament. I love the work Johnny Mercer is doing. I also fully support Ben Goodwin's endeavours, even though I disagree with him on almost everything. We need more veterans on those benches.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 23:28
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by heights good View Post


Please don't get me started on the delusional SNP, they are so toxic and live in a complete fantasy land filled with tartan, Irn-bru, overflowing oil wells and Braveheart quotes.

Agreed, they are one trick ponies and seem to focus on the one subject to the detriment of running their Country whilst having a pop at the UK accusing them of doing similar over Brexit. They also bleat on about independence but wish to remain in the EU... then appear delusional as to what the actual the results of independence will mean border wise etc to Scotland, but to be fair the UK is in a similar boat.

i then still cannot get over Corbyn going on about pumping extra billions into Scotland to improve the economy, industry, infrastructure etc, then giving them a vote to leave afterwards... That reminds me of the RAF building swimming pools resurfacing roads etc then shutting the place.

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