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Douglas Bader

Old 17th Aug 2019, 09:18
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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I think this sort of post-mortem a bit pointless TBH

We know what Bader did, and yes, its important to know what he was like, warts & all, but that really doesn't change the impact he made

I find the modern tendency to judge historic figures by modern standards quite strange TBH - especially as there is nothing we can do about them now...............
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 11:23
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Uncannily, I had stumbled across the YouTube video only hours before this thread was started. One person who was in the video but I don't think has been mentioned on this thread yet was Douglas's wife, Joan. She passed away less than 4 years ago at the ripe old age of 97. In 1988 I had the great privilege of flying Joan in Charles Church's two-seat Spitfire. She was very excited to finally be able to fly in a Spitfire and made some comments skywards to let Douglas know! There are some days and sorties that you never forget (and I also flew Jeffrey Quill in the same aircraft that day but that is another story!).

In 1976 I went to a Spitfire symposium in Southampton, to celebrate the 40th anniversary of its first flight, and one event was a discussion about the Spitfire on stage in a theatre between Douglas, Adolf Galland and Johnnie Johnson. It was fascinating to listen to, informative and amusing. Joan did say to me that Adolf used to stay with them occasionally and that the conversation was lively!

Happy memories.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 12:56
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Clearly I was mistaken, DB must have been a wg cdr of whatever sort when shot down. Wonder of promoted to gp cat so that he could retire "retaining his rank"

Thanks also for cannon v machine gun info, much as I had surmised
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 15:19
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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The requirement was that the fuse did not arm until a safe time/distance from the muzzle.
YS,
Can you tell me how the fuze worked?
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 15:41
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by India Four Two View Post


YS,
Can you tell me how the fuze worked?
No idea Iím afraid, in fact Iím not even sure the chaps doing the proof test knew. I was only looking at what the round did and how it was ensured that it was doing it. How it did it was another field altogether. Proof involved a whole series of tests including:

a. Chamber pressure
b. Hang time
c. Case integrity
d. Fuse functions
e. Primer initiation
and possibly a couple more that Iíve forgotten.

This is was the 30mm Aden round and cannon combination. I also saw 20mm Hispano (although this was almost out of service), 20mm Oerlikon and 40mm Bofors. There was an interesting 7.62 tracer round test as well.

YS
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 18:22
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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I’ve not been able to find any information, whether for early cannon or contemporary ones. I’m intrigued as to how you pack a fuze into such a small space.
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Old 17th Aug 2019, 19:27
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by India Four Two View Post
Iíve not been able to find any information, whether for early cannon or contemporary ones. Iím intrigued as to how you pack a fuze into such a small space.
I can't help you much,other than point you at this Imgur Gallery.

YS
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Old 18th Aug 2019, 00:40
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Current issue .50 Caliber M-211 Round.

Uses a. pyrotechnical fuze system....armor piercing, incendiary, high explosive projectile.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 06:33
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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My late Father was with him in POW camp, and apparently he was a real pain in the neck. Camp apparently cheered and clapped when he was transferred to another camp, as his repeated baiting of the Goons as he would call them, just caused issues for everyone else. Reading comments above he probably thought they were cheering him !

Regards
Mr Mac
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 07:05
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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well I guess some people just liked a quiet life until the Armistice - Bader saw his job to continue to make life difficult for everyone
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 07:22
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And we were always told that it is oneís duty to escape if made a PoW.
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 07:54
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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As a kid I remember Bader's surname in RAF circles was commonly pronounced as "Bayder " which led to the apocryphal correction by his good self .

"Bayder? ,....... BAYDER!"

"It's BAADER!...., as in Bastard!!!!"
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 08:28
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Maxibon View Post
And we were always told that it is oneís duty to escape if made a PoW.
From what I remember of it being said, was the fact that with tin legs he was never realistically going to be able to escape, but his constant goon baiting caused issues for those that were trying to do so......

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Old 20th Aug 2019, 14:41
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps by being a pain to the Goons.....their attention was focused upon him and his antics rather than other endeavors.

His antagonizing conduct may have been useful in that regard.

You suppose there are those that were confined with him that had the same mixed reaction to him in the POW Camps that they had before being imprisoned?



During the Vietnam war we had a Special Forces Officer, Rocky Versace, captured by the NVA/VC and held captive in the jungle of South Vietnam.

He was such a pain for his captors....that in the end they murdered him.

We also had a young Air Force pilot, Sean Sijan, who evaded capture for forty-six days before being captured after being shot down.

He continued his resistance by attempting to escape several times before dying due to injuries incurred during his escapes and resulting severe beatings and torture.

Both received the Medal of Honor for their actions as POW's.

Different Wars....different enemies....different repercussions for failed escapes.

Until the murder of Fifty escapers from Stalag Luft III ("The Great Escape") punishment was usually some solitary confinement in the "Cooler" as in general the Germans until late in the war were not very brutal in their treatment of Interned POW's from Western Forces.....not so for those from the East.


http://www.axpow.org/vietnamescapes.pdf

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Old 20th Aug 2019, 15:12
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Asturias 56
I think you were right to a degree, as many did correspondence courses, and if not officers, even worked outside the wire to break up boredom, especially those captured early in the conflict. My dad arrived via Bomber Command in late 1943 and escaped in 1945 from a marching column, though his motives were that due to low level strafing by US /RAF aircraft as it was becoming very dangerous to stay, rather than disrupting the German war effort. They were on the run for 15 days, and he watched the bombing of Hamelin during this time on his 21st birthday, eating raw potatoes, as he reminded me on my own 21st.

Kind regards
Mr Mac
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 14:50
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK View Post
...and I also flew Jeffrey Quill in the same aircraft that day but that is another story!
That is a story I'd very much like to hear; would you share? Quill seems to have been an altogether different sort of animal to Bader.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 17:41
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Wander00, greetings


Back in the day I researched the WWII rank structure and the post war retained rank system which led me to this gem ...

--- HANSARD 1803–20051940s 1944 April 1944 4 April 1944 Written Answers (Commons) COAL INDUSTRY

ROYAL AIR FORCE (OFFICERS, PROMOTION)


HC Deb 04 April 1944 vol 398

ß
Sir R. Glyn asked the Secretary of State for Air whether he can state the systems of promotion in the R.A.F. for air crews and officers engaged on ground duties, respectively; whether the distinction between acting rank and temporary rank is governed by any particular regulation; to what extent officers are debarred from any promotion if not promoted from acting temporary rank; and what is the position of Volunteer Reserve officers, many of whom are fairly senior and who had seen service either in the Army or Navy before joining up for employment during this war.
ß
Sir A. Sinclair The scheme of war-time promotion for officers in the R.A.F. can be briefly described as follows:

Substantive Promotion.

Promotion to substantive rank is confined to officers holding permanent commissions and is limited to vacancies on the 1939–40 peace establishment.

Time-Promotion.

Officers of the General Duties Branch (aircrews) are commissioned in the rank of pilot officer. After six months' service in that rank they are granted time-promotion to flying officer and after a further 18 months time-promotion to flight lieutenant, subject in each case to satisfactory service. For other officers there is time-promotion to the rank of flying officer after six months' satisfactory service in the rank of pilot officer, except in the Medical and Dental Branches where officers are entered as flying officers and are granted time-promotion to flight lieutenant after one year's satisfactory service.

Temporary Promotion.

Promotions to ranks outside the scope of time-promotions are made within the war establishment on the recommendations of Central Promotion Boards held at the Air Ministry.

Acting Promotion.

Acting rank is granted to officers employed in posts graded in a rank above their existing rank pending the availability of an officer of the appropriate substantive or temporary rank, and is tenable only so long as an officer is filling such a post. Acting ranks up to wing commander may be granted by commands; the acting rank of group captain and above is granted by the Air Ministry.

Officers who obtain an acting rank two or more steps above their basic rank and hold it for certain periods are given war substantive rank one rank below the acting rank and they cannot drop below this in war if they lose their acting rank.

Promotion Boards for temporary rank are held half-yearly and the claims of officers, whether holding acting rank or not, who have not been selected by one Board are considered by subsequent Boards.

As for the last part of the Question, the claims to promotion to temporary rank of R.A.F.V.R. officers with previous service are fully considered along with those of other officers. Promotions are of course limited to vacancies.
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Old 29th Aug 2019, 18:50
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post

I find the modern tendency to judge historic figures by modern standards quite strange TBH - especially as there is nothing we can do about them now...............
"To arrive at a just estimate of a renowned manĒs character one must judge it by the standards of his time, not ours."
Mark Twain, 1896.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 09:50
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Perhaps by being a pain to the Goons.....their attention was focused upon him and his antics rather than other endeavors.

His antagonizing conduct may have been useful in that regard.

You suppose there are those that were confined with him that had the same mixed reaction to him in the POW Camps that they had before being imprisoned?



During the Vietnam war we had a Special Forces Officer, Rocky Versace, captured by the NVA/VC and held captive in the jungle of South Vietnam.

He was such a pain for his captors....that in the end they murdered him.

We also had a young Air Force pilot, Sean Sijan, who evaded capture for forty-six days before being captured after being shot down.

He continued his resistance by attempting to escape several times before dying due to injuries incurred during his escapes and resulting severe beatings and torture.

Both received the Medal of Honor for their actions as POW's.

Different Wars....different enemies....different repercussions for failed escapes.

Until the murder of Fifty escapers from Stalag Luft III ("The Great Escape") punishment was usually some solitary confinement in the "Cooler" as in general the Germans until late in the war were not very brutal in their treatment of Interned POW's from Western Forces.....not so for those from the East.


http://www.axpow.org/vietnamescapes.pdf
SAS - can you help explain tis apparent contradiction?

No American POW escaped from North Vietnam and successfully reached friendly forces.
In Vietnam more than 4% of American POWs successfully escaped and reached US forces.
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Old 30th Aug 2019, 14:39
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Likely the difference between "North Vietnam" and "Vietnam".
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