Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

1947 Pattern Flying Wings

Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

1947 Pattern Flying Wings

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 21st May 2019, 23:24
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
1947 Pattern Flying Wings

I recently came across a photo of an Airman who was undertaking Officer Training. He was a Pilot with the rank of Aircrew II and the photo must date to 1947/48. There were two anomalies in the photo which someone on here may be able to answer. Firstly he is wearing his rank badge at the bottom of his sleeve (as a Master Aircrew would ) which I have only ever seen worn on the upper arm and he was wearing bullion flying brevet, which I had always believed for only for the Officers 1947 Uniform change. I would be most obliged if anyone can throw any light on these anomalies.
dragon166 is offline  
Old 22nd May 2019, 23:13
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 289
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
I was expecting something from Northrop...
k3k3 is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 06:14
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somewhere flat
Age: 68
Posts: 5,568
Likes: 0
Received 46 Likes on 31 Posts
I have just a theory.... if he was wearing a new officer pattern uniform during his officer training (which would have been of shorter duration than it is today perhaps), would he have wanted large thread holes across the upper arm of his uniform once he had graduated? The aircrew rank structure was very new in 1947, and perhaps this was one of the early "experiments" with the badges that was tried. Same for the flying badge: why put on an old standard badge for just a very few weeks and then have to un-pick it before putting on the new one.

The alternative of course is that he just got it wrong with the new AC II badge.
Wensleydale is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 13:54
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In a world of my own.
Posts: 380
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
DRAGON166

Any chance of a photo please?

Aaron.
AARON O'DICKYDIDO is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 17:16
  #5 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The pic is from "The Formation Sign" the Journal of the Military Heraldry Society who did a special edition for the RAF 100th Anniversary.

dragon166 is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 17:56
  #6 (permalink)  
MG
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 593
Received 15 Likes on 9 Posts
The rank was a short-lived scheme for non-commissioned aircrew to give them their own structure, not far removed from the US Army CWO idea. It lasted barely 4 years and the result was that the only surviving rank was the Master Aircrew, which you mention.

From Wikipedia, about MACr ‘This rank is the sole survivor of a system of separate ranks for aircrew which existed between 1 July 1946 and 1950 (another system for technical staff existed between 1950 and 1964)’.
MG is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 18:23
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,336
Received 82 Likes on 34 Posts
As others have said. This was the 1946 Aircrew Scheme. Details on the rank badges here: https://www.rafweb.org/Ranks-Uniform/Ranks6C.htm

As for the Pilot Flying Badge (never, ever, a brevet as that is French for a certificate or diploma). In the 1950s a full size bullion flying badge replaced the white/ecru silk ones and also the lower pockets were removed from the No 1 Dress jacket. It looked awful.
It was known as 1947 pattern and there is more detail here:
http://www.britairforce.com/imagepag...iform_1947.htm

You can see Sir Frank Whittle wearing one here in this painting along with the gold flying badge:



So I reckon you could date your photo to between 1947 to 1950 (ish).

Last edited by Lima Juliet; 23rd May 2019 at 18:41.
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 19:24
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,336
Received 82 Likes on 34 Posts
In fact, just having re-read your post, then it would be unusual to wear the Aircrew II rank so low down on the sleeve. Here are some Aircrew with the badge mid-sleeve and an officer in the awful pocket-less No 1s.


Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 20:17
  #9 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

Thanks all for your views. I already knew all the details of the Aircrew Rank system badges, most of which are in my collection and the 1947 jacket, which I also have in my collection. All I wanted to know was why the badge is worn as it is in the photo because, as I said and is shown in the above pic, I had only ever seen this badge worn on the upper Arm. The gold embroidered wings were introduced in 1947 to accompany the jacket as mentioned. In the 1950s they reverted to the standard pattern when the 47 jacket proved unpopular. My question was if this type of badge was worn by NCO aircrew as well as Officers. Having looked more closely at the photo it would seem that he is wearing an officer quality uniform, albeit with the white cadet patches on the shoulder. This method of indicating Cadets at OCTU began in 1947 and was phased out in 1952 so yes, the photo could date between 1947 and 1950,when the NCO Aircrew Ranks were scrapped and reverted to standard ranking.

In case anyone doesn't know the uniform talked about in this post I have attached a pic of it.

Last edited by dragon166; 23rd May 2019 at 22:14. Reason: extra info
dragon166 is offline  
Old 24th May 2019, 19:43
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,336
Received 82 Likes on 34 Posts
Thanks for posting the picture. I wonder if your mystery photograph is because the individual is an Officer Cadet and so the Aircrew rank badge was moved down the arm? Also, as an officer cadet but already a qualified service pilot then they were able to wear the gold bullion badge?
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 25th May 2019, 12:24
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 8
Received 10 Likes on 6 Posts
The book "Per Ardua ad Astra" by Philip Congdon ( for those who don't know the book it's a work on RAF history, customs, traditions etc ) states that the "star and garter" badge was worn on both sleeve cuffs. Aircrew ranks 1-4 were abolished in August 1950.
Whilst I can't find anything at the moment, in my books, I'm fairly certain that the photos I've seen of the aircrew in question have always shown them wearing the badge on the cuffs.
papajuliet is offline  
Old 25th May 2019, 14:39
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,336
Received 82 Likes on 34 Posts
Originally Posted by papajuliet
The book "Per Ardua ad Astra" by Philip Congdon ( for those who don't know the book it's a work on RAF history, customs, traditions etc ) states that the "star and garter" badge was worn on both sleeve cuffs. Aircrew ranks 1-4 were abolished in August 1950.
Whilst I can't find anything at the moment, in my books, I'm fairly certain that the photos I've seen of the aircrew in question have always shown them wearing the badge on the cuffs.


Not in the above example?
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 25th May 2019, 14:55
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Westnoreastsouth
Posts: 1,827
Received 34 Likes on 30 Posts
Originally Posted by papajuliet
Whilst I can't find anything at the moment, in my books, I'm fairly certain that the photos I've seen of the aircrew in question have always shown them wearing the badge on the cuffs.
Aircrew Cadet up to Aircrew 1 normally worn on upper sleeve (A La Chevrons), Master Aircrew wore them on the Cuff (A La Warrant Officer)


longer ron is online now  
Old 25th May 2019, 18:06
  #14 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
More evidence as to normal placement.

dragon166 is offline  
Old 25th May 2019, 18:54
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

One thing I have noticed is that in my original picture the Cadet is wearing the first pattern badge, as shown on the left of the attachment. Most of the other pics seem to show the second pattern, as shown on the right of the attachment. Maybe the original intention was that they would wear it at the bottom of the sleeve and this later changed to the upper arm, to distinguish between Master Aircrew (WO) and the others???? Please ignore the star colours as there were two types according to category. The eagle is different on each version as well as the background colour change.
dragon166 is offline  
Old 25th May 2019, 19:15
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,336
Received 82 Likes on 34 Posts
Most of the pictures I’ve seen of 1946 Aircrew Scheme personnel are where they are wearing Battle Dress/War Service Dress. Whilst the picture I posted above shows some in No 1 Dress, have you got others where they are not in Battle Dress? That is the only difference I can think of and your 1st picture shows an individual in No 1s too. I then wonder if it is one of the vagaries of the 1947-pattern No 1s?
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 26th May 2019, 00:05
  #17 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Here are a couple with No 1 being worn and some with battle dress. These are dated 1950 taken from a training movie.




dragon166 is offline  
Old 26th May 2019, 19:21
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,336
Received 82 Likes on 34 Posts
Thanks Dragon166

Then I suspect that your first picture is a vagary of IOT. It also looks like an Officer’s No 1 as its not that nasty hairy stuff the Erk’s No 1s were made of!
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 26th May 2019, 22:44
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 77
Posts: 3,896
Received 16 Likes on 4 Posts
It also looks like an Officer’s No 1 as its not that nasty hairy stuff the erks' No 1s were made of!
As an aside, a chap on my nav course insisted on wearing his "hairy blue" BD, which he had been issued with at South Cerney. This was apparently permitted till the end of nav school even though he had had been in receipt of uniform allowance on commissioning. No amount of jibes could shame him into ditching the offending garment and either buying a barathea BD or just wearing no 1 like the rest of the course. Then came November 5th, and on attending the station bonfire he was heard to comment - "someone has dressed the guy up in battledress". It was only when he got back to his room that he discovered whose BD it had been!

Very impressed with your knowledge of the 1946 scheme, dragon 166 and the items you have in your collection. In over 30 years of dealing I never got my hands on any of these badges, and only ever once saw a complete set on sale at a militaria fair, and that for a sizeable sum, well into three figures.

Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 26th May 2019 at 22:54.
Tankertrashnav is offline  
Old 29th May 2019, 11:11
  #20 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Age: 72
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Lima Juliet That is another anomaly, in 1947 - 1950 the Cadets at Cranwell were wearing Airman pattern uniforms and not Officer pattern. The pictured Airman is attending an OCTU, not Cranwell or Henlow, as shown by the shoulder flash, so should also be wearing "Erks" uniform.
dragon166 is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.