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Shoreham Airshow Crash Trial

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Shoreham Airshow Crash Trial

Old 4th Dec 2020, 16:30
  #681 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by falcon900 View Post
More or less anyone apart from the CAA.......
There will be others better placed than me to suggest specific names, but for me the key issues are independence and objectivity.
For the record, I am not saying the CAA are wrong, it is just that they have a lack of independence, indeed to the point where they might even have a conflict of interest.
You may be right, doesn't mean their report is incorrect, and the quote from RAFCAM and other, "international aviation organisations" is fairly damning. Are they not independent and objective enough? If not, I'm beginning to wonder who would satisfy.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 07:46
  #682 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by falcon900 View Post
More or less anyone apart from the CAA.......
There will be others better placed than me to suggest specific names, but for me the key issues are independence and objectivity.
For the record, I am not saying the CAA are wrong, it is just that they have a lack of independence, indeed to the point where they might even have a conflict of interest.
Let’s remember, as disclosed during a Pre Inquest Review, it was Andy Hill that initiated the request for the CAA and AAIB to investigate the phenomena in the first place. On the basis of these requests, the Coroner elected to delay the inquest until the reports were delivered.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 09:20
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Originally Posted by TC_LTN View Post
Let’s remember, as disclosed during a Pre Inquest Review, it was Andy Hill that initiated the request for the CAA and AAIB to investigate the phenomena in the first place.
Presumably Bob Massingbird will be representing Andy Hill again.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 11:31
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The point I am trying to make is simply that the CAA (and to a lesser extent the RAF) are not objective or independent. In so far as the CAA has a general regulatory role, it has in my view a meaningful conflict of interest.
Were its investigations to unearth a body of credible evidence in support of CI, the obvious and immediate question becomes why had they not carried out these investigations before, leading to questions as to whether they were properly and proactively discharging their duties. It is a short journey from there to the question of whether the accident could have been avoided if the CAA had discharged its responsibilities diligently. Given that the evidence would have been unearthed by the CAA themselves, it would be pretty difficult for them to escape the conclusion that they had not.
On the other hand, a perfunctory cast around in places where they knew there was no evidence, and a factually correct statement that they had found no evidence........
Independence and the avoidance of actual or apparent conflicts of interest are basic and obvious requirements, and in their absence, I'm afraid the outcomes of the investigation are seriously compromised. IMHO
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 12:37
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falcon900 :-
Independence and the avoidance of actual or apparent conflicts of interest are basic and obvious requirements, and in their absence, I'm afraid the outcomes of the investigation are seriously compromised. IMHO
Absolutely right, falcon! Whatever the rights and wrongs of this terrible tragedy, your statement should be nailed above the entrance of every Regulator and Investigator, whether civil or military. Partiality doesn't work in aviation, it just leads to more accidents, more deaths. It is far too prevalent these days!
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 16:46
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CAA Indepenence !!!

The CAA are NOT an independent input into this whole scenario, simply because 'they' were the controlling authority for most of the issues that conspired in one way or another to 'enable' this accident.
There is no doubt it was an accident, but more to the point 'was it preventable'.
One thing for sure is the least culpable part was the aircraft itself which demonstrated up to impact its ability to maintain control as far as was possible.
The requirements of both display pilot authority, and actual display location 'oversight' are both CAA regulated to the point that designated persons have a responsibility in both cases.There is no doubt that the CI input clouded the issue to the point that that relatives are still left to wonder 'who/what was responsible', and what could have been done to prevent it.The day in question was hot and that itself is always a factor in reducing performance of both aircraft and engine, however display limits are designed to allow a margin for error and the CAA require a display director to oversee operations and call a stop to proceedings if required.Whilst the original charges should never had been implemented equally the decision to proceed with the intended vertical display manoeuvre from a lower than authorised height should have prompted a reaction from the display director, and this was before any possible G factors.
So !, have any lessons been learnt that contribute towards this happening again !!, of course they have, but in the main they did so because of forums like this, not because of a trial that failed to highlight the root cause of the situation.
Whether the Coroner will be influenced in all of this rather depends on anyone who is able to offer evidence that 'de clouds' the questionable CI input, and looks at how the systems in place at the time were followed.

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Old 5th Dec 2020, 17:20
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Originally Posted by POBJOY View Post
One thing for sure is the least culpable part was the aircraft itself which demonstrated up to impact its ability to maintain control as far as was possible..
Yet the aircraft was not airworthy or serviceable, and operating under a fundamentally flawed permit to fly. And the pilot was not told this.
However, I agree with the general points you make.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 17:35
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Originally Posted by falcon900 View Post
......I'm afraid the outcomes of the investigation are may be seriously compromised. IMHO
My edit, otherwise I agree.

Doesn't mean they're wrong, especially when they include the opinions of overseas expertise.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 18:16
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POBJOY - That is a great post and says just about says all that needs to be said.

I am not an aviation professional, but I have been reading aviation accident reports since 1968; I was 11 years old, RAF crew room used by my Dad, AEF VR pilot. The human factors are the most interesting and I missed my vocation in life. Sadly the one thing I have learnt over the years, is that lessons are still not learnt.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 08:57
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Aircraft did not fail

Originally Posted by tucumseh View Post
Yet the aircraft was not airworthy or serviceable, and operating under a fundamentally flawed permit to fly. And the pilot was not told this.
However, I agree with the general points you make.
TUC My comment was referring to the point that the 'aircraft itself' did not cause or was part responsible for the incident notwithstanding any issues re its permit. In fact it only proved what a fine machine it was and how sound the design was even when pushed beyond what was reasonable for the conditions. However it 'was grounded', and one has to assume this action was taken in order to 'create the impression' that the stable door has been closed even though that particular horse had never 'bolted'. One has to remember that safety rules regarding airshows were originally drawn up to protect crowds attending such events, and the Pilots briefings were always quite clear on such basic items as not flying over the crowd or turning 'towards' the crowd line. These rules were very much airfield related, but could include the wider scope of areas to avoid whilst positioning. However these rules did not replace the overall conditions as per the ANO which applied to aircraft operations in general,and include many public safety issues as the norm. What Shoreham highlighted (if it needed highlighting) was that some display locations were unsuitable for some aircraft that required a larger positioning space to cope with a short crowd line and nearby built up areas. The other factor is the 'off airfield' areas that attract collections of people watching the display but are not part of the 'display safety regulations', and although on paper covered by the ANO in fact should be part of the overall display organisation 'planning' to mitigate any potential issues that this may cause. As to the actual Shoreham incident itself we are left with a public that have not really been given an honest appraisal of all the facts, and the effective loss of a hugely popular display scene overall.

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Old 6th Dec 2020, 10:33
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Originally Posted by just another jocky View Post
My edit, otherwise I agree.

Doesn't mean they're wrong, especially when they include the opinions of overseas expertise.
The problem is, when you dont know whether the investigation is compromised or not, then it absolutely IS compromised.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 11:38
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Can someone explain to me what motivation the CAA might have for wanting to influence the findings of further investigation into CI? There does not seem to be an obvious equivalent to the “protect the retired Air Marshals” allegation associated with Mull, etc. The CAA’s regulation of display supervision has already been discredited; what else could it be hoping to protect? A finding of CI would surely take attention *away from* airworthiness matters, if indeed there is anything to be diverted from.

As for the RAF, a finding of CI’s existence would actually be quite convenient to very senior leadership in implementing its vision for uncrewed platforms. So not sure what institutional motivation is being implied there either.

Last edited by Easy Street; 6th Dec 2020 at 11:48.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 16:08
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
Can someone explain to me what motivation the CAA might have for wanting to influence the findings of further investigation into CI? There does not seem to be an obvious equivalent to the “protect the retired Air Marshals” allegation associated with Mull, etc. The CAA’s regulation of display supervision has already been discredited; what else could it be hoping to protect? A finding of CI would surely take attention *away from* airworthiness matters, if indeed there is anything to be diverted from.

As for the RAF, a finding of CI’s existence would actually be quite convenient to very senior leadership in implementing its vision for uncrewed platforms. So not sure what institutional motivation is being implied there either.
Agree with this. CI being real would be a convenient excuse to CAA “oh, we didnt know about this CI, it explains everything, nothing else to see here” (sweeps regulatory issues under carpet).

looking at the credentials of the panel - 3x Profs, 1x Doctors and a couple of other professionals - who have worked in the UK, Aus, US and NZ, I have no reason to doubt their relevant professionalism or experience. They are also displaying willing to put their name to the report, so if there was contrary evidence they would be discredited immediately.

It starts looking like parts of the US unwillingness to look at science in the face if Covid-19 because it doesn’t suit their narrative.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 22:52
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Coroners Inquiry

A Coroner is required to 'explore facts' to determine the probable cause of any 'unnatural death. One would assume they are 'independent' and able to use whatever information is available to come to a decision. The use of CI by the defendants team was part of a 'legal' process to show doubt on the prosecutions case which was in itself was poorly constituted, and probably not the correct charge to have been made.
A Coroner has the opportunity to look at the 'facts' and engage with information from outside independent bodies to assist in a fair inquiry.
I suspect that a Coroner will be very wary of being influenced by 'clouding issues' and more interested in exploring how this sad and tragic accident happened in what is supposed to be a highly regulated regime. It may well be that the more basic details of the situation will be explored in greater detail, and a honest and reasonable cause attributed to this accident.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 09:59
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
Can someone explain to me what motivation the CAA might have for wanting to influence the findings of further investigation into CI? .
If the investigation discovered that there was clear and available evidence that CI existed which predated Shoreham, then there would be an inference that a diligent regulator would have sought to address it in regulations for pilot medicals and or airshow display rules. As the CAA had done neither, there would be a clear basis for an allegation of negligence.
All hypothetical obviously, and as I have said already, I am not saying that CI does exist, or that the CAA report is incorrect. Simply that the CAA had such an obvious and significant conflict of interest that they were arguably the worst people to be carrying out the investigation as, however thorough they were, suspicion would remain.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 20:35
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Cloud building !!

[QUOTE=Easy Street;10941581]Can someone explain to me what motivation the CAA might have for wanting to influence the findings of further investigation into CI? There does not seem to be an obvious equivalent to the “protect the retired Air Marshals” allegation associated with Mull, etc. The CAA’s regulation of display supervision has already been discredited; what else could it be hoping to protect? A finding of CI would surely take attention *away from* airworthiness matters, if indeed there is anything to be diverted from.

If you remove all the issues of a 'trial' and merely investigated how this accident happened under a CAA regulated system, it would throw up many items that were less than satisfactory, and certainly did not even follow the system as envisaged by the authority. The common factor in all this was the authority itself therefore the CI input if nothing else was a convenient distraction from the rather more relevant route of how the system itself was implemented. Having been provided with a suitable 5/8 of cloud cover in court, increasing this only diverts attention away from more tangible evidence. Who benefits from that !!. Mistakes/Errors happen so the original CPS case was not appropriate, and should not have singled out the Pilot. Let us hope that the Coroner looks at the wider picture.



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Old 15th May 2021, 17:34
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In these somewhat difficult times does anyone know if a new date for a resumed inquest has yet been set?
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Old 18th Jun 2021, 17:08
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https://www.westsussex.gov.uk/news/s...february-2022/
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