Nav to Pilot Crossovers
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Nav to Pilot Crossovers
AOC in C PTC (or was it the Chief Executive, I can't remember what day it was...) was recently heard to say that he thought the nav to pilot crossover scheme was likely to restart.
Likelihood or political spin?
Would it help nav retention more than a wad of cash?
Would it put the smiles back on the faces of the directional consultants?
Discuss....
Likelihood or political spin?
Would it help nav retention more than a wad of cash?
Would it put the smiles back on the faces of the directional consultants?
Discuss....
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Bearing in mind why most Nav's end up being Nav's, because for whatever reason they could'nt make the grade for pilot, why should they suddenly now be the answer?
If I am going to climb into Albert on a daily basis I would like the comfort of knowing that the best man/women for the job is sat up front and not someone who's position was attained due to some financial skull duggery.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
If I am going to climb into Albert on a daily basis I would like the comfort of knowing that the best man/women for the job is sat up front and not someone who's position was attained due to some financial skull duggery.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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On the good side: most backseaters do very well in their training and subsequent jobs (lots, for example, streamed FJ and single seat); however:
We are still just as short of Navs on the frontline as pilots, so unless they make the Mighty Fin single seat it won't happen for a few years yet to FJ Navs. (although not speaking from experience I think that the Nimrod world is just as short, I suppose there could be Helo cross overs? Any wobble heads out there know?)
So possible but very unlikely methinks, the last set of FJ Nav crossovers caused a severe shortage in Navs and, funny old thing, they stopped them!
We are still just as short of Navs on the frontline as pilots, so unless they make the Mighty Fin single seat it won't happen for a few years yet to FJ Navs. (although not speaking from experience I think that the Nimrod world is just as short, I suppose there could be Helo cross overs? Any wobble heads out there know?)
So possible but very unlikely methinks, the last set of FJ Nav crossovers caused a severe shortage in Navs and, funny old thing, they stopped them!
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Always Broken, seems like you are in a good mood again - not!
Yes people have failed their aptitude tests but as they say any monkey can be trained to fly, the difficult bit is trying to learn to fly and learning about flying at the same time; they are different concepts. Admittedly there will always be people who cannot fly and be aware of what is going on around them and they should be chopped early on and not be a burden to the sqns as has happenend in the past. The reason why they put experienced ALMs on the J to start with was because they have learnt about being an ALM and now could concentrate on being an asset to the flight deck. I'm sure you won't disagree with that. Could an ab initio ALM have coped with being one of the first ALMs onto the J!
The problem is not whether qualified Navs can make it through the pilot trg scheme (most probably will) but whether the system can cope (which it probably can't). There isn't a lack of people coming through the front door at the CIO who want to be pilots but there is a lack of a fully functioning trg system; it cannot cope with any more people because of the underfunding in the 'sausage machine'. If they can put 60 pilots through the machine at the start and get 100% graduation you will maintain status quo with your predicted outflow. However, you cannot put more people through and the sausage machine is emptying faster than you can get the meat in!! Therefore you are never going to get the numbers back up to what you need, no matter how many people you push through the front door - the fast track system will not work because the pipe needs to be fatter.
As you probably realise I am not a pilot but a have gained alot of capacity (some would say different) in my role as a Tac AT Nav and I might be able to struggle now as a (ME) pilot, however I would say that I would be no worse than a 'green' co coming through now who is trying to learn flying (up, down, left, right) and airmanship (what the f**k is going on).
WhichWay.
Yes people have failed their aptitude tests but as they say any monkey can be trained to fly, the difficult bit is trying to learn to fly and learning about flying at the same time; they are different concepts. Admittedly there will always be people who cannot fly and be aware of what is going on around them and they should be chopped early on and not be a burden to the sqns as has happenend in the past. The reason why they put experienced ALMs on the J to start with was because they have learnt about being an ALM and now could concentrate on being an asset to the flight deck. I'm sure you won't disagree with that. Could an ab initio ALM have coped with being one of the first ALMs onto the J!
The problem is not whether qualified Navs can make it through the pilot trg scheme (most probably will) but whether the system can cope (which it probably can't). There isn't a lack of people coming through the front door at the CIO who want to be pilots but there is a lack of a fully functioning trg system; it cannot cope with any more people because of the underfunding in the 'sausage machine'. If they can put 60 pilots through the machine at the start and get 100% graduation you will maintain status quo with your predicted outflow. However, you cannot put more people through and the sausage machine is emptying faster than you can get the meat in!! Therefore you are never going to get the numbers back up to what you need, no matter how many people you push through the front door - the fast track system will not work because the pipe needs to be fatter.
As you probably realise I am not a pilot but a have gained alot of capacity (some would say different) in my role as a Tac AT Nav and I might be able to struggle now as a (ME) pilot, however I would say that I would be no worse than a 'green' co coming through now who is trying to learn flying (up, down, left, right) and airmanship (what the f**k is going on).
WhichWay.
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Which Way,
Don't want to start a war here but ab initio ALMs are trusted with cockpit duties on SH therefore, it is only reasonable to assume that the fixed wing counter parts are able to do the same.
On a lighter note, we could do what we have done in the past and train Navs as SH crewmen!
Don't want to start a war here but ab initio ALMs are trusted with cockpit duties on SH therefore, it is only reasonable to assume that the fixed wing counter parts are able to do the same.
On a lighter note, we could do what we have done in the past and train Navs as SH crewmen!
In the ME world, several navigators have made the cross-over. All have been very successful. Indeed, one is now a Captain.
Trouble is, the RAF wouldn't listen to his request to cross-over. So he left, bought a CPL/IR course with his gratuity, did very well and then got a job with a certain Orange airline. Did well at that, now has command of a 737!
Another will probably get a VC10 command soon, yet another is now doing the TriShaw course as a co-pilot. And yet another is working for me as a very capable FI.....on the PA28. Hopefully he'll get an airline job when the market picks up. Judging by the number of people currently banging out of Virgin, that won't be long in coming......
Trouble is, the RAF wouldn't listen to his request to cross-over. So he left, bought a CPL/IR course with his gratuity, did very well and then got a job with a certain Orange airline. Did well at that, now has command of a 737!
Another will probably get a VC10 command soon, yet another is now doing the TriShaw course as a co-pilot. And yet another is working for me as a very capable FI.....on the PA28. Hopefully he'll get an airline job when the market picks up. Judging by the number of people currently banging out of Virgin, that won't be long in coming......
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..in fact the very first (I think) guy I recall meeting who had done the seat change ended up on Jags and and ended his career as a Jag Stn Cdr (the hairier amongst you may recall him - he was the one with a spectacularly large nose!).
Always_Bleating_in_Wilts - I don't recall any of his wing men wingeing about his capabilities and am certain there was no skull duggery.
Do recall a young backseater who had a "reference" from 2-star dad to help him cross over - but once he hit Lightnings everyone wondered why he was ever streamed nav in the first place.
Always_Bleating_in_Wilts - I don't recall any of his wing men wingeing about his capabilities and am certain there was no skull duggery.
Do recall a young backseater who had a "reference" from 2-star dad to help him cross over - but once he hit Lightnings everyone wondered why he was ever streamed nav in the first place.
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Shut up and drive, nav to pilot crossovers - great, but surely they cant help nav retention as if you get one you quit being a nav..... or am I missing the point.
And Bigley, if you're who I think you are then although you are more than trusted with "flight deck duties" (v grand term) it is a long way to go to do more work after all.....
And Bigley, if you're who I think you are then although you are more than trusted with "flight deck duties" (v grand term) it is a long way to go to do more work after all.....
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Some days I love my job.....and this is one of them. Nice to see some of the the sideways facing brethren are incapable of retaining their flock within the crib.
WW Firstly I have been smiling all day....second of three days standown, but you have proved my point.......We don't want someone who is going to struggle.....we may pay peanuts but do we really want monkeys?
CK Bleating? Naaaaaw I am far to happy with what I do for a living to bleat. But I do worry about how someones cost saving measures may affect my delicate pink body. Cost wise attempting to retrain Nav's has got to be far cheaper, maybe finacial skull duggery is a bit strong, than taking Joe Bloggs off the street and putting him through IOT etc and I hope you see where I am coming from.
But I think this point manifests itself best by the fact that no "crossover" is being suggested for NCO Aircrew yet there are tons of examples of AA making the grade as pilots on all three types! What cost of IOT?
For that matter why not offer it accross the board as there are lots of folks out there who could make it but for the "quota filling" advice offered by CIO's. However this will never happen due to cost which makes me wonder why Nav's should be a special case.
footnote.......at 44, I am far to old, have never applied cos I am too thick so have absolutely no axe to grind here.
As regards Mrs L should we really be slagging off our families? However after 26 years together I hope I know her reasonably well and I think I would be right in saying that if she was going to leave me it would be for someone with a future, company car, large bank balance and prospects for success.............which I think leaves most ......................you finish it.
all spelling miastakes are "df" alcohol induced
WW Firstly I have been smiling all day....second of three days standown, but you have proved my point.......We don't want someone who is going to struggle.....we may pay peanuts but do we really want monkeys?
CK Bleating? Naaaaaw I am far to happy with what I do for a living to bleat. But I do worry about how someones cost saving measures may affect my delicate pink body. Cost wise attempting to retrain Nav's has got to be far cheaper, maybe finacial skull duggery is a bit strong, than taking Joe Bloggs off the street and putting him through IOT etc and I hope you see where I am coming from.
But I think this point manifests itself best by the fact that no "crossover" is being suggested for NCO Aircrew yet there are tons of examples of AA making the grade as pilots on all three types! What cost of IOT?
For that matter why not offer it accross the board as there are lots of folks out there who could make it but for the "quota filling" advice offered by CIO's. However this will never happen due to cost which makes me wonder why Nav's should be a special case.
footnote.......at 44, I am far to old, have never applied cos I am too thick so have absolutely no axe to grind here.
As regards Mrs L should we really be slagging off our families? However after 26 years together I hope I know her reasonably well and I think I would be right in saying that if she was going to leave me it would be for someone with a future, company car, large bank balance and prospects for success.............which I think leaves most ......................you finish it.
all spelling miastakes are "df" alcohol induced
Last edited by Always_broken_in_wilts; 1st Aug 2002 at 02:19.
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Although getting a little off the track, as far as whether it is a good idea for Navs to do the crossover. I have the following comment...
In the RAAF, at least, I think the success of Navs in pilot training indicates the inaccuracy of pilot aptitude testing. As a general rule, most Navs apply initially for pilot and are offered Nav due to their incompatability with pilot testing. These navs then proceed to complete nav training, do an operational tour and then re-role. I have not heard (although I am sure there are some) of any nav doing poorly on pilots course. Quite the opposite, most tend to get offered the FJ positions.
Surely those in recruiting should be scratching their heads and asking themselves why someone they assessed as not having the skill to fly at all, now Captain FJ (along with other types of course)
In the RAAF, at least, I think the success of Navs in pilot training indicates the inaccuracy of pilot aptitude testing. As a general rule, most Navs apply initially for pilot and are offered Nav due to their incompatability with pilot testing. These navs then proceed to complete nav training, do an operational tour and then re-role. I have not heard (although I am sure there are some) of any nav doing poorly on pilots course. Quite the opposite, most tend to get offered the FJ positions.
Surely those in recruiting should be scratching their heads and asking themselves why someone they assessed as not having the skill to fly at all, now Captain FJ (along with other types of course)
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ABIW
I think you'll find there is a crossover scheme for AA as I did in fact have a slot (albeit for 24hrs before PMA pulled the plug for that FY). In addition I know of the 3 individuals who are currently in the pilot trg system.
There have been an awful lot of AA recently who have taken the option to go to Sleaford Tech for the extended ITC and in my mind make bloody good officers. Some have even decided to become navs (perish the thought). Why could this be...? If you had become a nav, would that make you a w***ker? You sound ideally qualified (you said yourself you're thick). Being a plankie ALM is not quite the dream job you talk it up to be... (I don't mean that in a bad way)
All navs who are accepted on the Xover scheme have had to go to OASC and get the requisite scores on the aptitude tests. Therefore they are just as entitled to be there as the young wet behind the ears 20yr old that you would somehow prefer...
Bigley
We all know you couldnt find your arse in a bath so what do you know. At least if there's a nav about, there's someone to draw you a route to Ness??
I think the issue of navs leaving to be pilots not helping retention is a fair one, but so many navs are so pissed off they are either leaving to be civvy pilots or just plain leaving. Surely it would be better to have that experience staying in the service. It is that experience and middle ground that the RAF is trying to keep.
The JHC would quite like to have an all pilot fleet so perhaps there's a Xover route...
I think you'll find there is a crossover scheme for AA as I did in fact have a slot (albeit for 24hrs before PMA pulled the plug for that FY). In addition I know of the 3 individuals who are currently in the pilot trg system.
There have been an awful lot of AA recently who have taken the option to go to Sleaford Tech for the extended ITC and in my mind make bloody good officers. Some have even decided to become navs (perish the thought). Why could this be...? If you had become a nav, would that make you a w***ker? You sound ideally qualified (you said yourself you're thick). Being a plankie ALM is not quite the dream job you talk it up to be... (I don't mean that in a bad way)
All navs who are accepted on the Xover scheme have had to go to OASC and get the requisite scores on the aptitude tests. Therefore they are just as entitled to be there as the young wet behind the ears 20yr old that you would somehow prefer...
Bigley
We all know you couldnt find your arse in a bath so what do you know. At least if there's a nav about, there's someone to draw you a route to Ness??
I think the issue of navs leaving to be pilots not helping retention is a fair one, but so many navs are so pissed off they are either leaving to be civvy pilots or just plain leaving. Surely it would be better to have that experience staying in the service. It is that experience and middle ground that the RAF is trying to keep.
The JHC would quite like to have an all pilot fleet so perhaps there's a Xover route...
.........and the other became a Nav
