Battle of Britain Day
friartuck,
Do your own googling and book buying! There are a fair few books and articles that claim that even if the Luftwaffe had gained air superiority over Southern England the RN would still have wiped out the invasion fleet.
Do your own googling and book buying! There are a fair few books and articles that claim that even if the Luftwaffe had gained air superiority over Southern England the RN would still have wiped out the invasion fleet.
ORAC,
YOU call ME pompous and insufferable, forgive me for guffawing!
I do not hold that it was the case, but there IS an argument for it. B-36's with atomic weapons in 1948, supporting the Russians overland via Iran/India etc. I agree most unlikely but it is just a part of a historical perspective on the BoB that did not really exist in the 50's and 60's.
YOU call ME pompous and insufferable, forgive me for guffawing!
I do not hold that it was the case, but there IS an argument for it. B-36's with atomic weapons in 1948, supporting the Russians overland via Iran/India etc. I agree most unlikely but it is just a part of a historical perspective on the BoB that did not really exist in the 50's and 60's.
Handbags, ladies!
Anyway, I'm just about to watch a certain DVD with the volume cranked up high! Next year will mark the 50th anniversary of attending the premiere!
And yes, there may well be the odd freeze-frame moment...
Anyway, I'm just about to watch a certain DVD with the volume cranked up high! Next year will mark the 50th anniversary of attending the premiere!
And yes, there may well be the odd freeze-frame moment...
Last edited by BEagle; 16th Sep 2018 at 18:41.
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BEagle,
Now there's nowt wrong with watching that film, at any time but this weekend in particular, though your obsession with one scene is ever so slightly unhealthy...
Now there's nowt wrong with watching that film, at any time but this weekend in particular, though your obsession with one scene is ever so slightly unhealthy...
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Funny thing was, I found the DVD at an airport video store....
Frankfurt - which my Luftwaffe chums found rather amusing! One year I was attending a multi-national Airbus meeting with them in Spain on 15th Sep - as we boarded the bus at the hotel I said "Ah - die Deutschen! Happy Battle of Britain Day! By the way, you lost!"
"Next time YOU can have the Italians!" came the reply.
"We had them the first time and you STILL bloody lost!", I retorted.
Much laughter ensued - typical aircrew non-PC banter, but none of us gave a $hit!
Frankfurt - which my Luftwaffe chums found rather amusing! One year I was attending a multi-national Airbus meeting with them in Spain on 15th Sep - as we boarded the bus at the hotel I said "Ah - die Deutschen! Happy Battle of Britain Day! By the way, you lost!"
"Next time YOU can have the Italians!" came the reply.
"We had them the first time and you STILL bloody lost!", I retorted.
Much laughter ensued - typical aircrew non-PC banter, but none of us gave a $hit!
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Without the Frisch–Peierls memorandum and the approaches from the British to the Americans there may never have been a Manhattan project and an American atom bomb. And if both Britain and Russia had fallen, would the B-36 actually have been built - except as a weapon against Japan?
And If Britain had fallen, or conceded, Rommel would have taken the rest of the Middle East and, as planned, the German army would have taken the oilfields of Persia instead of later having to rely on Ploesti and artificial fuel. And the Middle East was seen as the gateway to India - and perhaps that might also have fallen to either Germany, or more probably Japan.
20-20 hindsight again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...hattan_Project
And If Britain had fallen, or conceded, Rommel would have taken the rest of the Middle East and, as planned, the German army would have taken the oilfields of Persia instead of later having to rely on Ploesti and artificial fuel. And the Middle East was seen as the gateway to India - and perhaps that might also have fallen to either Germany, or more probably Japan.
20-20 hindsight again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...hattan_Project
There are a fair few books and articles that claim that even if the Luftwaffe had gained air superiority over Southern England the RN would still have wiped out the invasion fleet.
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In the 1950s, Duncan Grinell Milne, late of the RFC and RAF, made the point in Silent Victory that the RN had an important role to play.
While there is a school of thought that the RAF wasn't that important - I think that Pr00ne was merely trying to point out that it existed, rather than claim Gold Club membership of it - it does tend towards an excessively simplistic revisionism which ignores some key bits of evidence that the leadership of the RN thought that Fighter Command was really rather important...
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Not least that, if you read the history of Fighter Command during the BoB, a very, very large proportion of their sorties are maritime sweep/armed recce to either to find targets for or threats to the RN and to attack maritime targets of opportunity.
They were there to defend the entire UK from threat, including naval.
They were there to defend the entire UK from threat, including naval.
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16th Sep 2018, 19:32 #
BEagle,
Now there's nowt wrong with watching that film, at any time but this weekend in particular, though your obsession with one scene is ever so slightly unhealthy...
Now there's nowt wrong with watching that film, at any time but this weekend in particular, though your obsession with one scene is ever so slightly unhealthy...
Are we never to see the fair Susannah again ? (Vive la malsain !)
The programme is one which if translated to today, would be most impressive indeed. As I keep pointing out, that this was one of tens of other stations holding similar events through the same day shows, without a doubt, that the RAF made a far greater effort toward flying displays in earlier times, albeit an ever diminishing return. One thing I do find mildly amusing in the programme is the theatrical description of some items, Hunters in 'Full Cry'! Marvellous.
FB
Last edited by Finningley Boy; 17th Sep 2018 at 00:51. Reason: CORRECTION
Thread Starter
Pr00ne:-
FED:-
The missing ingredient being their lack of Air Superiority of course. Even Fat Hermann couldn't have bungled that one. The Royal Navy would have been a sitting duck, rather than the Wehrmacht's invasion fleet. If Fighter Command had been defeated the whole outcome for Germany would have been dramatically altered. Hardly a small part of one war.
It didn't win us the war of course, but it prevented us losing it in 1940. That we survived meant that D-Day could follow, which sounded the death knell for the Third Reich (along with the Red Army's advance from the East of course). This revisionist RN nonsense is just that and says more about the RN than it does about the RAF. A pity, given that thanks to the RN's success in the Battle of the Atlantic we survived the following five years as well!
Quote:There are a fair few books and articles that claim that even if the Luftwaffe had gained air superiority over Southern England the RN would still have wiped out the invasion fleet.
I thought the Royal Navy tried that with a couple of battleships off the Malayan coast.
The missing ingredient being their lack of Air Superiority of course. Even Fat Hermann couldn't have bungled that one. The Royal Navy would have been a sitting duck, rather than the Wehrmacht's invasion fleet. If Fighter Command had been defeated the whole outcome for Germany would have been dramatically altered. Hardly a small part of one war.
It didn't win us the war of course, but it prevented us losing it in 1940. That we survived meant that D-Day could follow, which sounded the death knell for the Third Reich (along with the Red Army's advance from the East of course). This revisionist RN nonsense is just that and says more about the RN than it does about the RAF. A pity, given that thanks to the RN's success in the Battle of the Atlantic we survived the following five years as well!
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Vice-admiral Arthur Ninian was Dowding's brother, so I am sure he harboured a soft spot and a weather eye for for the navy. And having risen through the ranks of the Royal Artillery and the RFC himself, Hugh would have had a sympathetic understanding of the army too.
The service yesterday was splendid, but a little disappointing with very little political representation and no fly-past, but I suppose it was an off-year. The weather in London was perfect, but probably not at point of take-off. The whole congregation clapped massively and warmly as Paul Farnes was wheeled back down and out of the Abbey.
The service yesterday was splendid, but a little disappointing with very little political representation and no fly-past, but I suppose it was an off-year. The weather in London was perfect, but probably not at point of take-off. The whole congregation clapped massively and warmly as Paul Farnes was wheeled back down and out of the Abbey.
Prince of Wales and Repulse, and Crete for that Matter
It's worth noting too that the Kriegsmarine was a force to contend with, as it demonstrated to the RN regularly from 14 October 1939 until at least mid-1943, and would almost certainly have contributed to the neutralisation or destruction of the RN with its combination of submarines, fast attack craft and world-class major surface units (Bismark, et al). Of course, the Kriegsmarine would also have been protected by Luftwaffe fighters, reducing its vulnerability to our bombers, which would in turn have suffered high attrition, reducing the number available to support ground forces after a landing in the UK.
As a force in being, the RN would certainly have figured in the Nazi's calculations, but anyone suggesting it won the Battle of Britain does so without a serious understanding of the vulnerability of the naval forces of the era to air power.
Pr00ne:-
FED:-
The missing ingredient being their lack of Air Superiority of course. Even Fat Hermann couldn't have bungled that one. The Royal Navy would have been a sitting duck, rather than the Wehrmacht's invasion fleet. If Fighter Command had been defeated the whole outcome for Germany would have been dramatically altered. Hardly a small part of one war.
It didn't win us the war of course, but it prevented us losing it in 1940. That we survived meant that D-Day could follow, which sounded the death knell for the Third Reich (along with the Red Army's advance from the East of course). This revisionist RN nonsense is just that and says more about the RN than it does about the RAF. A pity, given that thanks to the RN's success in the Battle of the Atlantic we survived the following five years as well!
FED:-
The missing ingredient being their lack of Air Superiority of course. Even Fat Hermann couldn't have bungled that one. The Royal Navy would have been a sitting duck, rather than the Wehrmacht's invasion fleet. If Fighter Command had been defeated the whole outcome for Germany would have been dramatically altered. Hardly a small part of one war.
It didn't win us the war of course, but it prevented us losing it in 1940. That we survived meant that D-Day could follow, which sounded the death knell for the Third Reich (along with the Red Army's advance from the East of course). This revisionist RN nonsense is just that and says more about the RN than it does about the RAF. A pity, given that thanks to the RN's success in the Battle of the Atlantic we survived the following five years as well!
A Service of Thanksgiving and Rededication on Battle of Britain Sunday 2018
I was privileged once again to be invited to yesterday's Battle of Britain Service in Westminster Abbey insofar as my late father had flown Hurricanes from RAF Hullavington in defence of that station in mid September 1940, chasing after Junkers 88s.
The Abbey was packed, and on this occasion the Standard of No 92 Squadron was borne through the church, presented, and laid upon the High Altar as the Central Band of the Royal Air Force played 'Fanfare to the Royal Air Force'. Air Chief Marshal Sir Richard Johns represented The Prince of Wales and the congregation included many members of all ranks from the RAF as well as representatives from many Commonwealth and allied nations.
In The Bidding, Dr John Hall, Dean of Westminster, said, "Once again we come together on Battle of Britain Sunday in this House of Kings and House of Prayer to give thanks for the dedication and heroism of members of the Royal Air Force and the allied air forces in that remarkable struggle for air supremacy over Britain in October 1940. Their courage marked a turning point in the war, for without their bravery it is hard to see how the Second World War could have been won. As we reflect today on their gallantry and fortitude, we remember all who served and still serve in the Royal Air Force. We honour all who flight in the service of freedom; we express penitence for the suffering and destruction caused by armed conflicts; and we renew our commitments to work for justice, freedom, and decency. Today we pray especially for the Royal Air Force and all those who continue to work, often in immense danger, for justice and for peace. We ask for God's guidance that we may hold courageously to the values we profess, that we may indeed do his will, as we say together the prayer that Jesus taught us..."
Later in the Service we called to mind several other parties that contributed to victory in the Battle, and those organisations that then and now support those who have suffered from injuries or who lost their lives whilst serving with the Royal Air Force, and their dependents. We remembered also those who are currently serving in the Middle East, the Gulf, the South Atlantic and other operational environments. As was mentioned above, only one veteran of the Battle was able to accompany the Roll of Honour that contains the names of those who died in the course of the Battle ... 'Lest we forget'. As was fitting, the last hymn we sang before the Service concluded was, 'The Airman's Hymn'.
After the Service, as we emerged into the bright sunshine and out under a cloudless sky, there were high hopes that the flypast would surely take place, but unfortunately it had been cancelled due to excessively high winds.
For those who may not know, The Abbey contains at the far eastern end of the building a Memorial Chapel dedicated to those who took part in the Battle, in which the colourful stained glass windows depict symbols drawn from the Squadron Badges of those units known to have participated under the control of Fighter Command. This is a quiet place, and well suited to enable visitors there to reflect upon sacrifices made by Royal Air Force and allied air force elements in the latter half of 1940 to ensure that in our hour of need our country remained free from invasion and potential subjugation.
I was privileged once again to be invited to yesterday's Battle of Britain Service in Westminster Abbey insofar as my late father had flown Hurricanes from RAF Hullavington in defence of that station in mid September 1940, chasing after Junkers 88s.
The Abbey was packed, and on this occasion the Standard of No 92 Squadron was borne through the church, presented, and laid upon the High Altar as the Central Band of the Royal Air Force played 'Fanfare to the Royal Air Force'. Air Chief Marshal Sir Richard Johns represented The Prince of Wales and the congregation included many members of all ranks from the RAF as well as representatives from many Commonwealth and allied nations.
In The Bidding, Dr John Hall, Dean of Westminster, said, "Once again we come together on Battle of Britain Sunday in this House of Kings and House of Prayer to give thanks for the dedication and heroism of members of the Royal Air Force and the allied air forces in that remarkable struggle for air supremacy over Britain in October 1940. Their courage marked a turning point in the war, for without their bravery it is hard to see how the Second World War could have been won. As we reflect today on their gallantry and fortitude, we remember all who served and still serve in the Royal Air Force. We honour all who flight in the service of freedom; we express penitence for the suffering and destruction caused by armed conflicts; and we renew our commitments to work for justice, freedom, and decency. Today we pray especially for the Royal Air Force and all those who continue to work, often in immense danger, for justice and for peace. We ask for God's guidance that we may hold courageously to the values we profess, that we may indeed do his will, as we say together the prayer that Jesus taught us..."
Later in the Service we called to mind several other parties that contributed to victory in the Battle, and those organisations that then and now support those who have suffered from injuries or who lost their lives whilst serving with the Royal Air Force, and their dependents. We remembered also those who are currently serving in the Middle East, the Gulf, the South Atlantic and other operational environments. As was mentioned above, only one veteran of the Battle was able to accompany the Roll of Honour that contains the names of those who died in the course of the Battle ... 'Lest we forget'. As was fitting, the last hymn we sang before the Service concluded was, 'The Airman's Hymn'.
After the Service, as we emerged into the bright sunshine and out under a cloudless sky, there were high hopes that the flypast would surely take place, but unfortunately it had been cancelled due to excessively high winds.
For those who may not know, The Abbey contains at the far eastern end of the building a Memorial Chapel dedicated to those who took part in the Battle, in which the colourful stained glass windows depict symbols drawn from the Squadron Badges of those units known to have participated under the control of Fighter Command. This is a quiet place, and well suited to enable visitors there to reflect upon sacrifices made by Royal Air Force and allied air force elements in the latter half of 1940 to ensure that in our hour of need our country remained free from invasion and potential subjugation.
Good comprehensive post, Nugget90. Thanks.
Thread Starter