Su-27 airshow crash
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
CNN 2nd Aug:
KIEV, Ukraine -- The death toll from the Ukraine air show disaster has risen to 84 after a 59-year-old woman died from her injuries six days after the tragedy.
Both pilots of the Sukhoi Su-27 ejected safely before the jet clipped the ground and tore through the crowd, exploding in flames in the world's worst air show accident, last Saturday.
Sixty-nine casualties, 20 of them children, are still being treated in hospital after the disaster in Lviv, western Ukraine.
Eight remain in a critical condition, the emergencies ministry said in a statement on Friday.
The prosecutor general has detained four top military officials in connection with the crash.
He also said the pilots, who were still being treated in hospital, were partly to blame.
The death toll rose the day after Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma publicly blamed the military for the disaster.
Kuchma questioned on Thursday why scarce defence funding was used to finance the Lviv air show and has promised to push ahead with reform of the military. (Story)
He has sacked the country's air force chief and the head of the armed forces, but he refused to accept the resignation of his defence minister.
Speaking in Sevastopol, he said: "How is it possible to understand when the army, working with insufficient funds, completing difficult work for our countrymen, spends its money not on raising the defence capability of the state, but on an entertainment show?
"I want to note that the guilty must be punished. And just those, those with direct and full responsibility for the tragedy. Not the second-class, little men."
Kuchma said the Lviv tragedy -- officially the world's worst air show disaster -- and an explosion in a mine in eastern Ukraine on Wednesday that killed at least 19, was damaging the country. (Mine disaster)
He said: "I am sure the incomplete reform process in the military and the difficulties of that work made the tragedies of recent times possible. We have to draw a line under this once and for all."
Following the Lviv disaster, Ukraine's air force chief Viktor Strelnykov, and Petro Shulyak, the head of the armed forces and acting defence minister, were sacked.
But Kuchma said on Thursday said he had not accepted the resignation of Defence Minister Volodymyr Shkidchenko.
Strelnykov was quoted by Interfax-Ukraine news agency as saying the pilots had failed to carry out orders.
KIEV, Ukraine -- The death toll from the Ukraine air show disaster has risen to 84 after a 59-year-old woman died from her injuries six days after the tragedy.
Both pilots of the Sukhoi Su-27 ejected safely before the jet clipped the ground and tore through the crowd, exploding in flames in the world's worst air show accident, last Saturday.
Sixty-nine casualties, 20 of them children, are still being treated in hospital after the disaster in Lviv, western Ukraine.
Eight remain in a critical condition, the emergencies ministry said in a statement on Friday.
The prosecutor general has detained four top military officials in connection with the crash.
He also said the pilots, who were still being treated in hospital, were partly to blame.
The death toll rose the day after Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma publicly blamed the military for the disaster.
Kuchma questioned on Thursday why scarce defence funding was used to finance the Lviv air show and has promised to push ahead with reform of the military. (Story)
He has sacked the country's air force chief and the head of the armed forces, but he refused to accept the resignation of his defence minister.
Speaking in Sevastopol, he said: "How is it possible to understand when the army, working with insufficient funds, completing difficult work for our countrymen, spends its money not on raising the defence capability of the state, but on an entertainment show?
"I want to note that the guilty must be punished. And just those, those with direct and full responsibility for the tragedy. Not the second-class, little men."
Kuchma said the Lviv tragedy -- officially the world's worst air show disaster -- and an explosion in a mine in eastern Ukraine on Wednesday that killed at least 19, was damaging the country. (Mine disaster)
He said: "I am sure the incomplete reform process in the military and the difficulties of that work made the tragedies of recent times possible. We have to draw a line under this once and for all."
Following the Lviv disaster, Ukraine's air force chief Viktor Strelnykov, and Petro Shulyak, the head of the armed forces and acting defence minister, were sacked.
But Kuchma said on Thursday said he had not accepted the resignation of Defence Minister Volodymyr Shkidchenko.
Strelnykov was quoted by Interfax-Ukraine news agency as saying the pilots had failed to carry out orders.
Last edited by ORAC; 2nd Aug 2002 at 17:09.
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Article in the "Sundays" reports that cause was "pilot error" combined with lack of ground planning to cope with such an accident. Must agree with Chris Kebab that there never really looked like there was anything wrong with either engine. I think the handling pilot missed one or more of his "gates" and aircraft did in deed stall in the final stages as he realised he had f***** it and pulled full back stick. It has happened before and sadly may well happen again. RIP Chris Lackman and Jack Thompson.
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Germans seem to think it was shot down...
Video here
Halfway down the page in the middle click on "zum video" then "Raketenabschuss" and "das video zum thema".
Video here
Halfway down the page in the middle click on "zum video" then "Raketenabschuss" and "das video zum thema".
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Thanks Damian, fascinating clip but as I don't speak German its a bit difficult to follow.
Are they seriously suggesting that something was fired at the SU27...?? From what I can make of their video extracts, thats what it looks like to me.....
Worrying!!!
Are they seriously suggesting that something was fired at the SU27...?? From what I can make of their video extracts, thats what it looks like to me.....
Worrying!!!
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My German ain't up to much either but the bits I could catch seem to be suggesting one or two projectiles were fired at the aircraft, and the Ukrainians have estimated a speed of 700 mph for the projectiles, and the pilot crashed trying to avoid them.
Personally I think they need to take a chill pill and read this unless somebody can point me towards a smokeless noiseless SAM currently in service anywhere!
Personally I think they need to take a chill pill and read this unless somebody can point me towards a smokeless noiseless SAM currently in service anywhere!
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Actually the reporter said the video footage was confiscated by the local secret service. Russian TV Channel NT showed it last nite and claimed it was an UFO who caused the disaster. Apparently RTL believe this hoax and echoed it, ridiculous. If you play the video frame by frame you can see there's no coordination between the a/c and the UFO and it's only visible in the grey area. If it's a SAM where's the jetblast/smoke?
The 2nd "projectile" could be an ejected pilot?
The sight of the bottom of the a/c so close is absolutely horrifying......
Capt.KAOS
The 2nd "projectile" could be an ejected pilot?
The sight of the bottom of the a/c so close is absolutely horrifying......
Capt.KAOS
Yes, Him
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The still or photo showing the port wing l/e damage is very late in the crash sequence. The a/c had already taken the nose off a parked Il-76 with, from memory of the initial TV coverage, the port wing. The port wing tip then touched the ground briefly and the crew ejected about this time as, or just before (again from memory) the a/c started to cartwheel.
Could'nt get to the RTL video referred to above BTW
Could'nt get to the RTL video referred to above BTW
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The news story has been moved. Now go to the news page and you'll find a link with a screen shot, "EXKLUSIV-VIDEO". Click on it and it takes you to "DAS VIDEO ZUM THEMA":
RTL
RTL
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Bigears - the pic's genuine alright.
The RTL footage includes a bit shot by somebody who presumably is no longer with us, showing the aircraft from near head-on as it bottoms out, looks like it *did* hit the trees after all, but it was already banked over to port by that point. After the wingtip hits the ground and the rest of the aircraft flattens out to hit the tarmac an explosion starts - looks like by the nose - and only then do the pilots leave - you can see the canopy go. The video then shows it beginning to ground-loop and ends as the chap doing the videoing realises he's in the path of the aircraft. It presumably tipped up on the other wing at this point and began that cartwheel through the static line-up.
The RTL footage includes a bit shot by somebody who presumably is no longer with us, showing the aircraft from near head-on as it bottoms out, looks like it *did* hit the trees after all, but it was already banked over to port by that point. After the wingtip hits the ground and the rest of the aircraft flattens out to hit the tarmac an explosion starts - looks like by the nose - and only then do the pilots leave - you can see the canopy go. The video then shows it beginning to ground-loop and ends as the chap doing the videoing realises he's in the path of the aircraft. It presumably tipped up on the other wing at this point and began that cartwheel through the static line-up.
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That is simply the most awful thing I've seen.
I don't think the 2nd object is a bang seat, it seems to be heading in the wrong direction relative to the aircraft.
As for smokeless manportable sams.....
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/m.../row/rbs70.htm
I guess we won't know, till the Ukranians finish their investigations
I don't think the 2nd object is a bang seat, it seems to be heading in the wrong direction relative to the aircraft.
As for smokeless manportable sams.....
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/m.../row/rbs70.htm
I guess we won't know, till the Ukranians finish their investigations
Su-27 crash
I think "raketenabschuss" means rocket-seat,so let`s not get carried away with SAMs!
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Pilot error blamed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2178539.stm
"the pilots had failed to follow the flight plan and performed difficult manoeuvres which they had not done before"
Hmmm.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2178539.stm
"the pilots had failed to follow the flight plan and performed difficult manoeuvres which they had not done before"
Hmmm.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Skylark.
Go to RTL as above, click on "News" then "Nachrichten" on the left hand menu.
On that page you'll find a link about half way down under "Schlagzeilen" to "Ukraine: RTL-Exklusiv-Video". Click on that and you get get to their report with the video under the "Das video zum Thema" link.
Probably the last day they'll have it there though. Anyone downloaded a copy which is available or know of another more permanent site with it on?
Go to RTL as above, click on "News" then "Nachrichten" on the left hand menu.
On that page you'll find a link about half way down under "Schlagzeilen" to "Ukraine: RTL-Exklusiv-Video". Click on that and you get get to their report with the video under the "Das video zum Thema" link.
Probably the last day they'll have it there though. Anyone downloaded a copy which is available or know of another more permanent site with it on?
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SU 27 FCS
Several contributions have assumed that the SU-27 has fly-by-wire, but others have suggested that the pilot pulled too hard and stalled it. Surely fly-by-wire FCSs include Alpha-limiters? When I left the business the SU-27 FCS was still the subject of "intelligent speculation". Do we know definitely that it has FBW?
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Su-27 FBW
The Su-27 does have FBW and is also AoA limited. However, the aircrew can disable the AoA limiter by means of turining it off, or can overide it by applying additional back presssure on the stick.